Talk:Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman decline

How to get a new discussion on the above?

@S Marshall As the question is above? John Not Real Name (talk) 11:54, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

You don't. Reopening a recently closed RFC is considered disruptive. (See WP:FORUMSHOPPING and WP:DE #5) EducatedRedneck (talk) 12:39, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

"A subsequent discussion with more participation could overrule this one and decide to implement one of the options."—S Marshall T/C 08:23, 29 August 2025 (UTC) Then why did the editor who closed the discussion write it was possible? John Not Real Name (talk) 12:59, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

There is clear consensus against "option A". That much we know. M.Bitton (talk) 13:22, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

You can run a fresh RfC and advertise it more widely, but as EducatedRedneck rightly says, it would be disruptive to do that now. In six months would be reasonable, considering that you didn't get much participation at this one. I would recommend offering different wording options, i.e. not A or B above.—S Marshall T/C 13:26, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

@S Marshall: you're obviously not aware of the history behind this RfC (a tiresome discussion, 3O, DRN, etc.) because the OP insists on an option that the others have rejected as WP:OR. As such, it might not be a bad idea to mention in the closing statement what the consensus is regarding "option A". Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 13:42, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

He is not meant to know the history behind it. Only one person has accepted Option A as original research. I guess you do too which is two. In any case, if the issue is not enough people then how is there a consensus on any option? John Not Real Name (talk) 14:02, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

@EducatedRedneck, @M.Bitton and @Bogazicili Can I propose an alternative wording quickly? I will try to make it be without frills or additions just to see that we agree on a minimum and just to include it in the text for now? So something like this:

"Edward Roger John Owen and Şevket Pamuk estimate that between 1913 and 1924, when the Balkan Wars, the First World War and the War of Independence took place in areas that were later to become part of Turkey, there were nearly 2 million Muslim casualties of the military and civilian population. Frederick Claiborne Shorter estimates in 1923 there was a population shortage of 2,140,000 muslims in what would become Turkey with losses likely concentrated during the last decade of the Ottoman Empire. Justin McCarthy estimates nearly 3,000,000 muslims, military and civilian, died in Anatolia between 1914 and 1922 attributing 2,400,000 to Christian persecution."

Is it allowed to propose and if accepted insert this for now or is it still considered part of the Request for Comments thing? John Not Real Name (talk) 14:00, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

Please read WP:DROP WP:DTS and WP:BLUDGEON. M.Bitton (talk) 14:03, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

The first one is irrelevant to this case by the way. I guess I will wait six months. John Not Real Name (talk) 14:08, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

This topic has been bludgeoned to death. I continue oppose the inclusion of the Pumak source. A change in wording does not solve this. I strongly advise that you let this drop. Per S Marshall, if you feel the same in six months, you can try a new RFC. EducatedRedneck (talk) 14:04, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

Well I guess see you in six months. I cannot hide that I am disappointed and rather perturbed by the logic used by people here but then again we are all equal. John Not Real Name (talk) 14:07, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

There was no consensus was what @S Marshall stated. John Not Real Name (talk) 13:31, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 October 2025

Please add this.

2405:6E00:624:7647:C2CB:BE97:18D1:9893 (talk) 02:53, 28 October 2025 (UTC)

 Done Day Creature (talk) 18:16, 28 October 2025 (UTC)

Forced conversions in Balkans

“ Between the 15th and 17th centuries, large numbers of native Balkan peoples were forcibly converted to Islam”

I don’t see a citation for this and reading Chapter 3 of the source listed seems to indicate the opposite

“ that all of the above-mentioned sources (that documented forced conversions) were authored by non-Muslims and that no corroboration can be found in Muslim sources for any forced conversions en masse. Ottoman chronicles only mention that Selim I and Murad IV indeed contemplated forced conversion of their non-Muslim subjects but were casily persuaded by the ulema and other state officials to abandon any such plans. Furthermore, there is the coincidence that both the chronicle of Metodi Draginov and that of Lamanski appeared at a time of intense anti-Greek and anti-Turkish national sentiment. It should also be noted that nobody except those responsible for publishing the latter sources has ever seen the originals.”

” it looks as though the first two chronicles were most probably fabricated for the purpose of raising nationalist spirit, a practice in the tradition of the Romantic movement dominating intellectual life in Europe" during that time, while the other two were written late enough to be considered also a product of nationalist sentiment.”

https://books.google.com/books?id=zQsB_AghBKkC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false ~2026-17210-75 (talk) 19:55, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

Requested move 26 March 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 23:02, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

---

Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction → Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman decline – The "Ottoman contraction" is not a commonly used term to refer the Ottoman decline. The dissolution of the Ottoman Empire refers to a more specific period of time, while this article covers more time. So the most WP:PRECISE title is decline. An article with the title Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman dissolution would be a child article of this article, since it refers to a more precise period of time. Wikipedia seems to be missing an article of a general Ottoman decline, but we have Decline and modernization of the Ottoman Empire, which is perhaps enough to warrant a WP:CONSISTENT justification. Sahib-e-Qiran, EasternShah 21:30, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

But doesnt the decline start in the 19th century? "Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction" article also includes events before 19th century, such as the Great Turkish War Ch3rk.essk0 (talk) 05:48, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

The decline started in the late 16th century. M.Bitton (talk) 16:15, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Decline also refers to the period that is covered in the article. M.Bitton (talk) 16:38, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit request 8 May 2026

Description of suggested change: In the Commemoration section, remove the part about the Iğdır Genocide Memorial and Museum. It is dedicated to denying the Armenian genocide (in fact it is the subject of the first image on the article about Armenian genocide denial, its caption cites several sources that it promotes the negationist view that Turks were the victim of genocide by Armenians, rather than vice versa), and is cited to an (unreliable) primary source government page. The content on this page currently grossly misrepresents it. Wreaderick (talk) 14:00, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before posting an edit request. Day Creature (talk) 17:40, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

How would I go about forming consensus for this? I'm asking because I'm a somewhat new user and not too familiar with the process of calling editors to share their views here. I don't think this calls for a formal RfC or anything. In any case that claim needs better sourcing; the Turkish government is most certainly not going to be a reliable source on this subject. I also doubt that there would be any reliable sources that call that monument anything other than something dedicated to Armenian genocide denial. Wreaderick (talk) 17:01, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

See WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS and WP:APPNOTE. Day Creature (talk) 17:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)