Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage/Archive 12

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Protocol question: How to refer to someone with a name like "Xeres Youill of Zounds" in short form

If we need to refer to someone like that in short form, because their full name was given earlier, or we're doing a short citation, should it be:

1. "According to Youill of Zounds (2023) ..."
2. "According to Youill (2023) ..."
3. "According to Zounds (2023) ..."

? I've been using option 1, but am not 100% certain that it's conventional or not redundant.

Or does this vary by reason they have an "of Zounds" name format (named for a region or just for an estate/manse)?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I think that options 2 and 3 are more likely. It depends on the persons involved and the need for disambiguation. Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington is referred to as both Wellesley and Wellington in that article. Harold Macmillan is not referred to as Stockton in his article. The British royal family tends to be referred to chummily by their first names. It probably all depends on how we came to know them: Wellington was well known before he gained his dukedom; Macmillan was ennobled late in life; the royals are known to us before they gain substantive peerages. Within an article on a particular peerage, the given names of people sharing the title throughout history may be more frequently used. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:33, 15 June 2023 (UTC) (edited 05:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC))

Thanks, but I think I'm going to stick with the "long short" form then, for the purposes I'm putting these names to (primarily citations), because "it depends on the person involved and ... how we came to know them" doesn't work for that; they largely are not really known to us, but are obscure persons who wrote books 200 years ago, and we don't know anything about how they came by the titles (or maybe WP does, in some little-read article, in some of these cases, but the reader doesn't, and many of them are redlinks anyway). The "is referred to as both Wellesley and Wellington in that article" lack of consistency doesn't work for this, either; referring to same author as "Youill (2023)" in one paragraph but "Zounds (2023)" at another would be very confusing. As long as "Youill of Zounds (2023)" isn't absolutely wrong for some protocol reason I don't understand, it's my clearest solution.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I see that I got carried away thinking that you were talking about text references rather than those for citations, or other attributions. Also, your too-abstract example did leave me wondering what part is the title and what the given name. I forgot the example of Treasure Houses of Britain, an article I started and where I mention, using various forms in large part inspired by the program itself, a number of noble presenters and historical figures. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:09, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Are you talking about Scottish names like Donald Cameron of Lochiel? I see that that article calls him Lochiel after he became chief; but my impression is that Cameron would be more usual. —Tamfang (talk) 21:00, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, my impression here is that this is referring to Scots names with a territorial designation (unfortunately, most of that page is about territorial designations and peerages, which isn't relevant here). Normally, after introducing one of these individuals, I would probably use 2, but if the narrative involved other individuals with the same surname, I would likely use 3 instead. (Not uncommon in a piece of Scots history). I don't think 1 is wrong (see e.g. ) but it feels a touch more formal than is usual. Choess (talk) 14:35, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Edwina Mountbatten, Countess Mountbatten of Burma#Requested move 28 June 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Edwina Mountbatten, Countess Mountbatten of Burma#Requested move 28 June 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 07:54, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson#Requested move 18 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson#Requested move 18 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 13:49, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Mary Cynthia Roche

I've just reviewed a new article on Mary Cynthia Roche, the aunt of Diana, Princess of Wales. We also have an older article about a Cynthia Roche, and I'm wondering what the best way to disambiguate these articles would be (or if the current titles are sufficient). Thought I'd drop a note here since I am not too familiar with British nobility and the disambiguation conventions for this topic. (Courtesy ping for article creator Dorothy Schnapp.) – Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 02:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Up to you, i will help if i was needed :) Dorothy Schnapp (talk) 05:13, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Titles in infoboxes

See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Sir and Dame in the name line of Infobox person. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:12, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Redirect Frances Thynne ?

Why is the redirect going towards Frances Seymour, Duchess of Somerset? and not Frances Thynne, Lady Worsley? Govvy (talk) 14:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Eric Birgersson#Requested move 14 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Eric Birgersson#Requested move 14 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:12, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson#Requested move 5 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson#Requested move 5 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. reading beans 01:21, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

AfD of Baron Crathorne

There is a deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Baron Crathorne that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Choess (talk) 04:24, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Postnominal letters and infoboxes

See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#MOS:POSTNOM for discussion. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York#Requested move 23 December 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York#Requested move 23 December 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 03:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation of links to Lists of members of the House of Lords

Recent changes to Lists of members of the House of Lords have created a large number of links to the disambiguation page. These are shown at Disambig fix list for Lists of members of the House of Lords and it is often unclear whether these should go to one of the following articles:

• List of current members of the House of Lords
• List of life peerages
• List of excepted hereditary peers
• List of former members of the House of Lords (2000–present)
• List of hereditary peers removed under the House of Lords Act 1999

Any help to redirect these to the right article would be appreciated.— Rod ^talk 16:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

William Yelverton, 2nd Viscount Avonmore

This stub has been unsourced for 15 years. Can you please help us to find and add references? Bearian (talk) 11:29, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

Thomas McClintock-Bunbury, 5th Baron Rathdonnell

Are there sources to demonstrate that Thomas McClintock-Bunbury, 5th Baron Rathdonnell meets notability requirements? The article was just proposed for deletion. Thriley (talk) 20:30, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Lords of parliament vs. barons

There is a discussion at Talk:Carolina Nairne#Titles that might benefit from this WikiProject's input. Zacwill (talk) 00:11, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

There's a discrepancy with the article Lord Nairne, which calls the title a barony, whereas certain other sources do not. Manuductive (talk) 03:36, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

There is a RfC at Talk:Carolina Nairne#RfC for lead sentence that might benefit from this WikiProject's input. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:14, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:David Maxwell Fyfe, 1st Earl of Kilmuir#Requested move 26 March 2025

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:David Maxwell Fyfe, 1st Earl of Kilmuir#Requested move 26 March 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 13:15, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Tennyson d'Eyncourt baronets#Requested move 28 March 2025

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Tennyson d'Eyncourt baronets#Requested move 28 March 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 00:08, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Jane Fellowes, Baroness Fellowes#Requested move 15 June 2025

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Jane Fellowes, Baroness Fellowes#Requested move 15 June 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 07:32, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Debrett's Digital Source

We've already got links to many old editions of Burke's and Debrett's Peerage through the Internet Archive, Gutenberg, Google Books et al. but these are all scans of physical books. Burke's hasn't actually published for a long time and Debrett's announced in 2019 that future editions will be online only. How shall we get access to these? On their website access requires a paid subscription. Is there anyone in this project group with access? Is there any chance of getting Debrett's added to the Wikipedia Library?

I asked this to the Heraldry & vexillology project in February but there was no reply. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 21:10, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Jane Fellowes, Baroness Fellowes#Requested move 8 August 2025

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Jane Fellowes, Baroness Fellowes#Requested move 8 August 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 10:52, 23 August 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Frances Burke, Countess of Clanricarde#Requested move 1 September 2025

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Frances Burke, Countess of Clanricarde#Requested move 1 September 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 13:29, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

Baron Furnivall

With the death of Ancilla Dent in October 2025, this title has come out of abeyance as Ancilla's death left her sister Patricia Bence as the sole heir. I have updated the Baron Furnivall title, but I suspect there are many places that need updating throughout wikipedia. New Progressive (talk) 17:10, 4 January 2026 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I think it would be helpful to have a reliable secondary source covering this; I assume Patricia is not yet enrolled as a peer? People unfamiliar with the peerage are likely to argue that this is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, although an editor citing Debrett's on inheritance of peerages and Burke's or Debrett's that Ancilla and Patricia were the only two heirs to the abeyant barony might argue that this is a "routine calculation" in the loose sense. Choess (talk) 19:22, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

Sir Robert Barr, 1st Baronet

Are baronets still automatically notable? Asking for an encyclopedia. Bearian (talk) 22:36, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

We've had a consensus for I think about 2 decades that baronets aren't presumed notable strictly by virtue of their title. First baronets are somewhat more likely to be notable (they rendered some service to the Crown to be granted the title, albeit sometimes a purely financial one). In this case the Complete Baronetage says that "Robert Barr, a Burgess of Glasgow , is said to have been cr[eated] a Baronet 29 Sep. 1628, but no further particulars are known of him". I think in this case I would reverse the direction of a redirect and point the article at Barr baronets, which I would format as a list (of one) like Munro baronets of Lindertis (1825). @Charles Matthews: has been doing most of the work on lists of baronets, recently, and would be well placed to render advice. Choess (talk) 19:17, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

@Bearian: No, baronets aren't automatically notable. Quite commonly these days, the heir to a baronetcy does not formally apply for the title; in other cases (e.g. Ferdinand Mount) he does not use the title. Denis Thatcher was made a baronet but that was the only creation now for six decades. Baronets have become a threatened species therefore. The English Wikipedia is a good place to have coverage of the past baronetcies, but after four centuries some of the holders of the title are unremarkable. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:13, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

In this particular case, I'd agree with the suggestion of a move to Barr baronets. A baronetcy as entity typically is notable, because it occurs in standard reference works, as here in Burke and Cokayne. It can be thought of as having a legal existence, for example here after it became dormant, because there are numerous legal cases precisely about the standing of dormant titles. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:26, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Jane Fellowes, Baroness Fellowes#Requested move 12 February 2026

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Jane Fellowes, Baroness Fellowes#Requested move 12 February 2026 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 04:17, 20 February 2026 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Quintin Hogg, Baron Hailsham of St Marylebone#Requested move 22 February 2026

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Quintin Hogg, Baron Hailsham of St Marylebone#Requested move 22 February 2026 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 04:48, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Walter_Monckton#Requested_move_25_February_2026

This move is perhaps of interest to the project, specifically around WP:NCPEER. Thanks. HundredVisionsAndRevisions (talk) 17:43, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Lord Mountbatten#Requested move 10 March 2026

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Lord Mountbatten#Requested move 10 March 2026 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Jacksonvil (talk|contribs) 22:27, 17 March 2026 (UTC)