User talk:SdHb/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Speedy deletion nomination of Hakan Agro DMCC

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A tag has been placed on Hakan Agro DMCC, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the guidelines on spam and Wikipedia:FAQ/Business for more information.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Gurt Posh (talk) 09:37, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

hello said98, could you please stop changing the squadnames of the afghan national team because i have already checked your information but it is wrong. where do you have shayesteh? do you even know shayesteh??? do you even know what you are doing???? the site where you have found the names arent the official site of the afghan federation. so please stop making the squad changes. because it is the wrong information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakkax1 (talk • contribs) 13:30, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

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02:32, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Bizagwira Marc

Hello Said98,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Bizagwira Marc for deletion, because the article doesn't clearly say why the subject is important enough to be included in an encyclopedia.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Fbergo (talk) 22:17, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

May 2018

Hello, I'm Mattythewhite. Your recent edit to the page Mohamed Salah appears to have added incorrect information, so it has been removed for now. If you believe the information was correct, please cite a reliable source or discuss your change on the article's talk page. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:08, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

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July 2019

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Third opinion decline

Please be aware that I have removed your submission at WP:3O. After reviewing the linked Talk page, I note that there has not been a thorough discussion there. Please be aware that there must be significant discussion at the Talk page as a prerequisite for requesting a third opinion. If you feel that further discussion at the Talk page currently will not be productive, I would invite you to consider other forms of dispute resolution. Thank you for your understanding. DonIago (talk) 18:00, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Query

Hi, could you explain why you have removed the 3O request for the Provisional IRA GAN? There was no edit summary. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:22, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

July 2021

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Nomination of Mohammad Haider Zhobal for deletion

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Aminullah Khan moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Aminullah Khan. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit for review" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 15:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello Significa liberdade, I don't quite get why this article needs more sources "to establish notability". This isn't just some random local politician that we are talking about, this has been the Minister of Justice of Afghanistan for 10 years. Just because he lived a long time ago and there aren't many sources from that time available online, the fact alone that he took a position as important as this one makes him notable nevertheless. Also, the source that is used is a proven historical artifact and has been used without concern in other contexts, even if it was the only source. So why should it be a problem now? SdHb (talk) 19:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi, @SdHb! You are correct that this individual is (most likely) notable given his government status. My overwhelming concern with the article is that it only has one source and no in-line citations. If Khan was in a high-level government position for a decade, there should be sources available somewhere. I moved the article to draft space so you could continue working on it because I did not believe it was ready for main space yet. If you disagree, you can submit the draft for review or move the article back to the main space yourself. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 20:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I get your concerns. I'm pretty sure that there are many articles in contemporary Afghan newspapers but these are rather hard to find online. Plus, while I'm able to read the Persian script, I'm not super fluent in it, so maybe some information slips through. Maybe a text block that indicates that more sources are desired can be added, but I'd like to move it back to the main Wikipedia page as the inserted source is a reliable artifact. SdHb (talk) 07:39, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@SdHb: This page was inadvertently deleted, but I've now restored it. Still, it needs additional references for verification since not all information there appears to be supported by the one reference. SilverLocust 💬 22:31, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

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February 2025

Welcome to Wikipedia. We appreciate your contributions, but in one of your recent edits to List of heads of state of Afghanistan, it appears that you have added original research, which is against Wikipedia's policies. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and personal experiences—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. You can have a look at the tutorial on citing sources. Thank you. TEMPO156 (talk) 16:52, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

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Languages of Afghanistan

Edit with Pata Khazana? FX200 (talk) 20:26, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

Excuse me, what is that? SdHb (talk) 20:27, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

More than 90% of Afghanistan can speak Dari, but not even 50% of the population can speak Pashto. How is the Pashto-speaking population larger than Dari when most sources say Dari is the main language of Afghanistan? FX200 (talk) 20:41, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

Brother, what are you referring to? In the article it clearly says 77% speak Dari and 48% speak Pashto? What do you want from me? SdHb (talk) 20:45, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I was wrong. FX200 (talk) 16:46, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

That's alright. 👍🏽 SdHb (talk) 07:05, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Notice of noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The topic is "Possible slow-moving revert war at CTOP article Hazaras". The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 03:37, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hi SdHb. Thank you for your work on Ittehad-e Islami. Another editor, MPGuy2824, has reviewed it as part of new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Ittehad isn't mentioned in the target page

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|MPGuy2824}}. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

-MPGuy2824 (talk) 10:05, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Half Barnstar
	For your collaboration at Talk:Ethnic groups in Afghanistan#Vandalism with Badakhshan ziba, after everything started off on the wrong foot. Thanks for working together. asilvering (talk) 17:26, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

		The Half Barnstar
		For the tremendous effort improving the article by adding content giving context to the real-world dispute over the article's topic. Xan747 (talk) 18:57, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

Do not revert

this edit as it could be construed as edit-warring.

@Asilvering: would you like to handle this or shall I, and if the latter, where? Xan747 (talk) 22:47, 3 September 2025 (UTC)

Hello @Xan747 that‘s fine. Thank you for handling this. SdHb (talk) 00:33, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

I should have made clear for others' benefit that you are not the editor out of line here. This is an unfortunate development. Xan747 (talk) 01:06, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

Continuing the discussion from User_talk:Asilvering#Another_big_revert_in_Ethnic_groups_in_Afghanistan, I propose that I post the following message on the other editors talk page:

Due to this edit, which restores your preferred content to the article against the consensus of myself and SdHb, we have agreed to give you 48 hours to self-revert your changes back to our consensus version. If we do not hear back from you within that amount of time, or you decline to revert your changes, we have decided that we will open a case at WP:ANEW against you for edit-warring. Thank you.

If you have other suggestions or changes, please let me know. Xan747 (talk) 17:28, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

That sounds perfect, thank you very much! SdHb (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

done. Xan747 (talk) 22:13, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, I hope we get a reasonable response. See you until then! SdHb (talk) 00:37, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

The good news is that if we do go to WP:ANEW, I'm already making plenty of friends. This place can be so frustrating sometimes. Xan747 (talk) 01:27, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

Sorry again to you both for not being on top of things - though it seems that this hasn't gone anywhere in the past few days, which is a relief. If they don't respond before your 48-hour ultimatum expires, please let me know instead of heading to the noticeboard - I'm hoping we can get through this without blocks, so I'll revert it myself and jump in editorially to try to sort this out bit by bit. -- asilvering (talk) 22:40, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

Hey that would be perfect, thank you! Yes, the past couple of days, not much happened. The other user hasn‘t responded yet and the 48 hours are over soon. SdHb (talk) 22:50, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

Sounds good to me as well. Xan747 (talk) 23:31, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution noticeboard discussion

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is "Ethnic groups in Afghanistan".

Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!

-- Xan747 (talk) 20:03, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

You should really refrain from any sort of criticism of the other editor as you did here. You might consider striking it. -- Xan747 (talk) 15:29, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

Division of effort on statistics

To avoid duplication of effort on this damn table, I propose you manage the entire list of sources and copy the relevant text into the references template as you've been doing. Once we've settled on a final format, I can make a script which will make it easy to add/change/delete the actual cells of data without having to manually enter them. (I'll keep the actual data in a machine-readable file that is simpler to edit, and my script will generate the wikicode.) Sound like a deal? Do you have other ideas? Xan747 (talk) 19:40, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

Hello @Xan747 I would be glad to assist you. Please forgive me for being slightly confused on what we are talking about now. Are we talking about the statistics table that we are creating for the live version? If yes, were should I maintain the reference templates? In my draft version or in the sources overview here? (And while we are talking about it: can you archive this table here so nobody gets confused with the one on the discussion of table talk page?) And to make the data machine-readable: do I have to take into account how I write down the data in the references? SdHb (talk) 21:46, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

Where to maintain a central list of the reference templates--for the stats only--is a good question. I think as a section of Talk:Ethnic groups in Afghanistan/Discussion of Table is better that at DRN, since the DRN discussion will eventually be archived and break links to it. I would just copy over the list you already have at DRN and we'll go from there. This might be a good opportunity to adopt standard naming for the sources, eg CIA-2005 or DW-1968, etc.

I'm talking about all the stats in all the candidate sources. We already have them, may as well extract them. Then if they get approved, we can simply zip them into the live version of the table. If that's too much work for you, that's fine. I'll do them all myself, but I was hoping in the long run it would save everyone time to do all this work up front once.

IDK if we should archive that old discussion quite yet. I'll look at it in a minute. Xan747 (talk) 21:58, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

And to be clear, you don't need to put extracted data into a table. Just in the citation template. I'll transcribe them into my database. Xan747 (talk) 21:59, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

Ok is it the sources table at DRN you want to archive? This one:Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Fifth_statement_by_editors_(Afghan_groups)? We should leave that one there as part of the permanent record. I hatted it, along with a bunch of other stuff surrounding it, at the suggestion of asilvering. I'll ask Robert if I can move it elsewhere on the page to make it easier to get at. I'll still want it hatted out of courtesy to everyone else using that page, but if it were at the top of the discussion, it would be easier for us to find. Xan747 (talk) 22:23, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

I posed the question to Robert at DRN Xan747 (talk) 22:43, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Xan747, is this what you mean?

Ethnic categories in Afghanistan

Ethnic category	Pashtun	Tajik/ Farsiwan	Hazara	Uzbek	Other ethnic categories
					Turkmen	Baloch	Nuristani	Aimaq	Others

????–???? estimates (xyz regime)
1978 Orywal	46–49%	26–28%	7–9%	7–8%	1–3%	1%	1%	5%

But with all round about 70 sources (the ones we used in our 3 draft versions included)? If yes, I can extract all relevant data from the sources and place them in a table (we can move this table into the DRN section). SdHb (talk) 14:20, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

References

Hi @SdHb. On review, I think there's nothing for you to do at the moment. I will just extract the statistics myself from our list and use them locally for my own needs. Thanks for being willing to help. Xan747 (talk) 17:50, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Xan747, alright, just let me know as soon as you need my help on something, I‘d be glad to help. Are you working on your own draft page in the meanwhile? SdHb (talk) 17:55, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

@SdHb Yes, I updated my table last night and posted a notification to the talk page with a rather verbose discussion of why I made the design choices I did. If you would like me to always ping you on talk pages (or at least for important things like that) I will be happy to do so. I really don't want to ping asilvering all the time, which is why I didn't ping anyone when I made that comment. If that makes any sense. (I must admit to being somewhat fatigued by the topic at the moment, but will get through it.) Xan747 (talk) 18:00, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

I totally feel you, the dispute is going on for way too long, and I‘m sorry that you have to go through all of this, I feel exhausted too. But I think by working together we will get through much faster. So yes, please ping me whereever and whenever you make a big change and need an opinion. Just know that I really appreciate your work. SdHb (talk) 18:05, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

And I yours. Xan747 (talk) 18:09, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

Tearing my hair out a bit right now, and that is all I should say. Xan747 (talk) 22:09, 21 September 2025 (UTC)

I feel you. At least we can agree on many points regarding the table layout. SdHb (talk) 22:31, 21 September 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Xan747 I hope you're doing well. I've noticed that you became less active in our case. I hope you still have the nerve to pull through all of it. SdHb (talk) 08:52, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

I'm not going anywhere, it just feels like there isn't much for me to add at the moment that I've not already said. Xan747 (talk) 15:26, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

@Xan747 I've suggested some next steps here. Would you agree with that? If yes, I would create those new sections. SdHb (talk) 16:31, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Answered yes with the condition that we first get approval from the DRN moderator. Xan747 (talk) 16:47, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

Just so you know

I did this, so no reason to bring up in article talk in case you were tempted. Xan747 (talk) 22:45, 6 October 2025 (UTC)

We may be nearing the point that we've beaten the issue of monarchy-era statistics to death. If he's not going to yield on it, he's never going to. Also, thanks for bottom-posting without indents, it really helps me follow the discussion at least. Reminder if you don't know, when making comments directly like that, you need to sign your posts with four tildes at the end of your response like this ~~~~. You didn't do that on your last one, so I signed it for you. Xan747 (talk) 23:47, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

@Xan747 It‘s getting increasingly frustrating and annoying by the minute. If a user is notoriously defiant to all compromise, how long can that be tolerated before being found WP:DISRUPTIVE? Also yes, I forgot to do that, happens pretty fast when using the edit section. :-) SdHb (talk) 00:30, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

I don't know that it constitutes disruptive at this point, better to just call it a deadlock. If he doesn't budge in his next response, I will propose we table it for now, and finalize the table layout for the sources we all agree on, and put that into the article before revisiting disputed sources. Xan747 (talk) 00:40, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

@Xan747 Sounds reasonable. When we've finally finished the article one day, we 1. might as well nominate the agreed upon version for the Excellent articles ourselves, and 2. raise a glass to celebrate that all this cr–p is finally over XD. SdHb (talk) 09:10, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

All the work you've done on this article certainly warrants at least good article status. Xan747 (talk) 16:31, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

@SdHb sir/madam now, I have not edited any disputed area of the article or lead section. I have only edited one minor subsection of a minority group with sources. My edit was not part of any dispute. If correction I made in a minor subsection of minority group have any problem you can explain the reason. If you still think, I've done anything wrong plz explain me on talk page pointing my user name. Email Khan hazzarvi (talk) 00:00, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

Hello @Email Khan hazzarvi, the entire article is currently being revised, as the discussion concerns not just the table of ethnic statistics but the whole text. You can see my draft text here. When it comes to the Gujjar, you need to consider that the length of each section of each ethnic category is generally proportional to its size in the population. Major ethnic categories receive around 300–400 words, minor categories about 200–300 words, and other, very small categories get around 100–200 words. Since the Gujjar are such a small group, a longer section like you added isn't justified. Keeping the text concise helps maintaining a consistent style across the article, which is important for meeting WP:GOODARTICLE standards which is a long-term goal for the article. Following WP:MOS, content should be clear, concise, and balanced to ensure smooth readability, which is why very small groups are best represented with shorter sections. If you like to add more information, you can edit the redirection articles I've added: Gujars, Gurjar clans, and List of Gurjars. That way, your information finds its way into Wikipedia without having too much WP:UNDUE weight in the "Ethnic groups of Afghanistan" article. Thank you for your understanding. SdHb (talk) 13:10, 5 November 2025 (UTC)

@SdHb

ٱلسَّلَامُ عَلَيْكُمْ sir/madam I was not aware about your draft I've added content under only 185 words, as you said minority groups text can be added under 100-200 words limit. Also external article links like Gurjar, Muslim Gujjars & List of Gurjars are fine but not Gurjar clans because this a redirect to Gurjar page. You can check text I've added in your draft without changing any other content their and text is under 185 words limit you can confirm it using (https://wordcounter.net/). Email Khan hazzarvi (talk) 01:27, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

As there is no separate article exit, as Gujars of afghanistan & other tribe-related pages are locked but as you said, under the 100-200 word limit, we can add content for minor minority groups that have 1.5-2 million population. I'd also like to request you that when you complete your draft, before adding to main the article, please assign all ethnic groups sections according to their population-wise estimates like 30 million, 20-15... 1.5 million to the last with 10-5 thousand people. In all sections population should be population wise. Like in minor category there tribes names must be according to their numbers from 5 million, 3, 2, and then 1.5 million to last 10-5 thousand people. Email Khan hazzarvi (talk) 01:41, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

@SdHb@Xan747@Badakhshan ziba Kindly also add on lead that the constitution of Afghanistan recognized 14 ethnic groups, and such ethnic group names need to be mentioned on lead whenever you guys finalized your draft. Because the 2004 Constitution of Afghanistan was significant in giving an overview of some main ethnic groups of Afghanistan and their recognition by the Afghan government. Sources were added in this revision with 14 ethnic group names that, 2004 Afghan constitution recognized. Email Khan hazzarvi (talk) 01:53, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

@SdHb Like here User:SdHb/Ethnic groups in Afghanistan (working)#Other ethnic categories per population estimates Qizilbash tribe should be in last because they have population of 30,000, while, Pashayi, Kygyz have population near to 1 million but for Gujar estimates are 1.5 million, so names need be re-aranged according to tribes/ ethnic group's population. Email Khan hazzarvi (talk) 02:22, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

وَعَلَيْكُم ٱلسَّلَامُ @Email Khan hazzarvi, thank you very much for your efforts to improve the article. It's clear that you've put thought into keeping the section concise and supported by sources. However, there are a few important points I want to clarify. Regarding the Gujjar population, no reliable source (per WP:RS) supports figures as high as 1.5–2 million. The question of which sources are considered reliable is still discussed, but for now you can see here which sources have been agreed upon so far. The highest figure among them comes from the Asia Foundation, which lists the Gujjars at less than 0.5% of the total population. That would be under 200,000 individuals as of 2021. Since available reliable demographic and academic estimates are much lower than the sources you refer to, it can safely be considered WP:FRINGE, and giving them the same space as agreed upon reliable sources would create undue weight (WP:UNDUE). To keep the article balanced and consistent, the idea is that smaller groups should therefore have shorter, summary-style sections. As for the ordering of ethnic categories, the plan is to follow approximate population size while also maintaining readability and logical flow (WP:MOS). Because different sources provide different numbers, it isn't always possible to rank them strictly by population. Regarding your point about the 2004 Constitution of Afghanistan, it's important to note that this constitution is de facto no longer in effect after the fall of Kabul in 2021. While it may still be mentioned in a historical context, it should not be presented as the current legal basis for ethnic recognition. The article must reflect this change in a neutral and up-to-date manner. And lastly, if you'd like to include more detailed information about the Gujjars, you are very welcome to create a separate article, for example Afghan Gujars or Gujars in Afghanistan. That way, you can expand on their history and culture with appropriate sources, while the main "Ethnic groups in Afghanistan" article remains concise and balanced. I hope this explanation helped you understand the reasoning behind the current structure and sourcing approach. Thank you again for your cooperation and constructive work on the article. SdHb (talk) 12:00, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

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How to close a discussion?

Hi. The initiator of the "no original research" dispute has asked me to close the discussion. I don't actually know how to do that, or if I'm "allowed" to do that (I'm not an admin). Maybe another neutral 3rd party could do it? Do you have any suggestions on who I might ask? Thanks. BetsyRogers (talk) 22:24, 19 November 2025 (UTC)

Hello @BetsyRogers, imperatrix did it four us :). SdHb (talk) 14:46, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

Good. Thanks for the update. I really tried to get to the core issue of the original complaint, but I'm not certain that the OP even knows what that is at this point. I even went through your back-and-forth discussions between you, BZ & Xan (because I hate an unsolved puzzle and this situation was definitely a puzzle). But I can't see any rationale for that level of anger, the strange accusations, and the subsequent formal reporting of what seems to be good faith writing/editing. I'm baffled. BetsyRogers (talk) 22:35, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

Hi @BetsyRogers, that's very noble of you. That may even be the right way, although time consuming, so thank you for trying to understand the wohle picture and that this wasn't just framing by me.

But I can't see any rationale for that level of anger, the strange accusations, and the subsequent formal reporting of what seems to be good faith writing/editing. I'm baffled.

You can trust me, we all were/are. Just try for months and months to assume good faith and willing to collaborate, just to wake up to another myriad of unreasonable accusations. It wasn't fun for me the whole time. This whole ordeal took so much of my free time, and my private life partly suffered from it. I wonder myself why it took me or others so long to finally put an end to the whole misery/this fever dream. Maybe Asilvering said it best: "Perhaps it was just that distractingly bad already." SdHb (talk) 12:35, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

I'm so sorry that this has had such an impact on you, and obviously on a few other people. Thinking back on my (admittedly brief) interactions with BZ, I think what threw me off was the frequent use of polite words like please and thank you, and the feigned intent to reach a peaceful resolution (despite there being no real evidence of that).

It reminds me of a cultural phenomenon with Southern women in the US (Southeastern US) who historically are taught (by example from other women) a style of conversion where you maintain a smile and a polite tone no matter what you're saying, even if what you're saying is "politely" insulting. Like you can essentially be telling someone to f*ck off, but you say it in a way that sounds polite. A classic example is

"Bless your heart" (scroll down to "I'd Rather Not Say What I'm Thinking"). Also see "Well Isn't That Special". ;)

Anyway, I've dealt with a couple of very skilled manipulators in my lifetime, and I can't say for sure that this qualifies as that, but one thing that my experiences have had in common was that when I looked back at certain events, I couldn't believe that I didn't immediately see I was being manipulated. The best manipulators get you to doubt your own instincts. Some of them might not even realize what they're doing, but that doesn't change the end result.

Also, I need to add "distractingly bad" to my vocabulary. :-/ BetsyRogers (talk) 22:11, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

Hi @BetsyRogers, thanks for sharing your thoughts and reflections so openly. I completely understand how exhausting and confusing situations like this can be, especially when good-faith efforts to resolve an issue feel unrecognized or even misinterpreted. It really takes patience and emotional energy to try to see the full picture and assume good faith over such a long time. Your observation about the Southern politeness phenomenon is insightful, I think I've heard of it before. Has it something to do with Southern women saying things like "sweetheart" often? Anyways, it really highlights how tone can mask intent and make interactions feel unpredictable or even manipulative, ao it's understandable to feel baffled after navigating that kind of communication repeatedly. It sounds like you've done your best to engage thoughtfully, and that effort absolutely matters. Hopefully now that the discussion has been closed, there can be some space to move forward without further stress. And yes, "distractingly bad" is definitely a phrase worth keeping in our heads :) Take care of yourself, and thank you again for trying to bring clarity and understanding to this tricky situation. SdHb (talk) 19:30, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

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