Talk:Édith Piaf/GA2

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Yadsalohcin (talk · contribs) 22:35, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Reidgreg (talk · contribs) 22:35, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Initial comments

Substantial work has been done since the article's first GA review (which did not pass), about 250 edits and 2 years ago. The article now has about 300 fewer words of prose (mostly taken from the overlong lead) but is 50% larger, with nearly twice as many sources cited. All of the major issues in that review have been addressed.

Full review to be forthcoming. – Reidgreg (talk) 22:35, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm going to be away for a few days so thought I should post what I have so far. I am open to discussion on any point. – Reidgreg (talk) 19:50, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

@Reidgreg thanks for this - I should be able to work through these detailed comments over the next week or so. Yadsalohcin (talk) 08:22, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

@Yadsalohcin: I apologize for my prolonged absence. I'll try to get back to this now. This may also be a bit complicated as it seems parts of the subject's past have been misreported and mythologized somewhat, so need to take a close look at sources with high-quality sources preferred, when available. – Reidgreg (talk) 14:47, 3 August 2025 (UTC)

Criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Review comments

Referencing & verifiability

• named ref allmusicbio (was yahoomusicbio). Note that Earwig is unable to check against Allmusic for copyvio, so this has to be checked manually. Used 25 times:
  • She is widely regarded as France's greatest popular singer and one of the most celebrated performers of the 20th century.
  • Twenty years later, Édith's stage surname Piaf was created by her first promoter, based on a French term for 'sparrow'
  • Piaf's mother abandoned her at birth, and she lived for a short time with her maternal grandmother, Emma (Aïcha), in Bethandy, Normandy. When her father enlisted with the French Army in 1916 to fight in World War I, he took her to his mother, at her brothel in Bernay, Normandy. There, prostitutes helped look after Piaf.
    N
    First sentence does not appear to be in source. For the second sentence, this source says that her father sent her to live with his mother after the war. Third sentence is ok.
    • Citations added to additional sources: First clause to Encyclopedia Britannica. The remainder of the first sentence is cited to a travel blog, which itself credits biography.com. There are, however, discrepancies between the two. The travel blog says she lived with her maternal grandmother for a short time, but not that this was in Bethandy (and does not name her).
      N
      The second and third sentences are now cited to Burke. (will check them below)
  • Together they [Piaf and Simone Berteaut] toured the streets singing and earning money for themselves. With the additional money Piaf earned as part of an acrobatic trio, she and Berteaut were able to rent their own place.
    N
    Underlined part not in source.
    • Part of the unsourced material was put into a wikicomment; I've struck that above. The underlined part remains unsourced. Allmusic does have while living in a succession of cheap, squalid hotels. One could assume that they rented these places together with their earnings, but I'd rather leave that assumption to the reader and keep this closer to the source (or find another source).
  • In 1935, Piaf (then still known by her birth name of Édith Gassion) was discovered by nightclub owner Louis Leplée.
  • which is Paris slang for "The Sparrow Kid". Leplée taught Piaf about stage presence and told her to wear a black dress, which became her trademark apparel.
  • Prior to Piaf's opening night, Leplée ran an intense publicity campaign, resulting in the attendance of many celebrities.
  • with one of them penned by Marguerite Monnot, a collaborator throughout Piaf's life and one of her favourite composers.
  • On 6 April 1936 [Leplée was murdered]
    N
    source has only April 1936, not the full date.
  • A barrage of negative media attention now threatened Piaf's career.
  • Raymond Asso He changed her stage name to "Édith Piaf", barred undesirable acquaintances from seeing her, and commissioned Monnot to write songs that reflected or alluded to Piaf's previous life on the streets.
  • In 1940, Piaf co-starred in Jean Cocteau's one-act play Le Bel Indifférent.
  • Piaf wrote and performed her signature song, "La Vie en rose" in 1945. Source Allmusic has only that she recorded this song in 1946.
    N
  • In 1947, she wrote the lyrics to the song "What Can I Do?" for her lover Montand. Within a year, Montand became one of the most famous singers in France. She broke off their relationship when he had become almost as popular as she was.
    N
    The underline part is not in source, particularly looking for verification that she wrote the song for Montand. The last sentence, while a faithful paraphrase of the source, seems to imply that she broke off the affair because his popularity was approaching her own. I'd like to see another source to corroborate that (or rephrase).
  • touring Europe, the United States, and South America. In Paris, she gave Argentinian guitarist-singer Atahualpa Yupanqui – a central figure in the Argentine folk music tradition – the opportunity to share the scene, making his debut in July 1950. Piaf also helped launch the career of Charles Aznavour in the early 1950s, taking him on tour with her in France and the United States and recording some of his songs.
    N
    Underlined parts not in source.
  • At first she met with little success with American audiences, who expected a gaudy spectacle and were disappointed by Piaf's simple presentation.
  • However, after a glowing review by influential New York critic Virgil Thomson in 1947,
  • [morphine] which became a dependency alongside her alcohol problems.
  • In 1952, her then-husband forced Piaf into a detox clinic on three separate occasions.
    N
    Source says that she married Pills in 1952, but not that Pills forced her into rehab three times that year. Also, the phrasing is too close to the source: "forced her into a detox clinic on three separate occasions."
  • In 1962, she wed Théo Sarapo (Theophanis Lamboukas), a singer, actor, and former hairdresser who was born in France of Greek descent.
    N
    Source does not have the year, the non-singing professions, and describes him as "Greek".
  • and the two remained married until Piaf's death.
    N
    Not stated in source.
  • She was taken to her villa in Plascassier on the French Riviera where she was nursed by Sarapo and her friend Simone Berteaut. Over the next few months she drifted in and out of consciousness, before dying at age 47 on 10 October 1963.
    N
    Source says 11 October.
  • It is said that Sarapo drove her body from Plascassier to Paris secretly, so that fans would think she had died in her hometown. Underlined part not in source, but may be covered by a second citation.
  • Piaf's body is buried in Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris, where her grave is among the most visited.
  • Shortly after her death, Piaf's funeral procession drew tens of thousands of mourners onto the streets of Paris, I would mention that estimating crowd size can be difficult and in some cases would require an expert source, but if sources are in general agreement on this then I'm fine with it.
• named ref "Burke" (no link) Caroline Burke, No Regrets: The Life of Edith Piaf (2011). https://books.google.mg/books?id=k5gcJnhQRvUC This book is 282 pages so page numbers would be useful. Used 6 times:
  • She is widely regarded as France's greatest popular singer and one of the most celebrated performers of the 20th century. page xi (Prelude)
  • Piaf met a young man named Louis Dupont in 1932 and lived with him for a time; she became pregnant and gave birth to a daughter, Marcelle "Cécelle" Dupont, on 11 February 1933, when Piaf was seventeen. After Piaf's relationship with Dupont ended, Marcelle, who had been living with her father, contracted meningitis and died in July 1935, aged two. Pages 27–28. The year 1932 is not given, though it states "Edith was sixteen and a half when she realized that she was pregnant." which would place that as the summer of 1932. For the second sentence, page 34 covers Dupont taking Cecelle; the remainder is presumably somewhere in pages 37 to 38, which are not in the Google preview. AGF.
  • [At Piaf's opening night] The bandleader that evening was Django Reinhardt, with his pianist, Norbert Glanzberg. Page 35 is given with the citation, but this does not match the edition in Google preview. (The same citation is used in the article on Glanzberg.) This period would seem to be from page 44–45, which is not in the preview. AGF.
  • Piaf was accused of collaborating with the German occupying forces and had to testify before a Épuration légale (post-war legal trial), as there were plans to ban her from appearing on radio transmissions. Seems to be from around page 99 on snippet view.
  • Following the trial, Piaf was quickly back in the singing business and in December 1944, she performed for the Allied forces in Marseille, alongside singer/actor Yves Montand. AGF
  • French media have continually published magazines, books, plays, television specials and films about the star, often on the anniversary of her death. perhaps from around page 234 or 264. AGF.
• additional citations to Burke; cited 6 times in the nominated version, now there are 15 citations to Burke.
  • Her father enlisted with the French Army in 1916 to fight in World War I. By the end of the war, she was in the care of his mother, at her brothel in Bernay, Normandy. Source, page 7, does not have the underlined parts. I found the part about the brothel on page 8. If you can't find a source for the first underlined part, it could probably be stated more generally.
  • From the age of three to seven, Piaf was allegedly blind as a result of keratitis. page 9. Good for most of this. Page 9 says that she had "blurred vision" and page 8 states that her vision was impaired. So I'd like if if this backed off a bit from 'blind'. Suggest: From the age of three to seven, Piaf suffered vision impairment/blurred vision and was diagnosed with keratitis.
  • Piaf claimed this resulted in a miraculous healing.
  • who became a companion for most of her life. In a memoir, Berteaut later falsely represented herself as Piaf's half-sister. AGF, consistent with other sources.
  • Her singing when she met Leplée has been described as "Comme un moineau" ("Like a Sparrow"). pages 42–43. AGF
  • Piaf was accused of collaborating with the German occupying forces and in October 1944 page 99. Snippet view that she testified in October. The purge courts began their work in June 1944, before Paris was liberated, so 1944 fits the timeline. AGF on the remainder.
  • she had to testify before an Épuration légale (post-war legal trial), as there were plans to ban her from appearing on radio transmissions. page 99. Snippet view that Piaf's name was published by a purge panel on a list banned from the radio. AGF
  • Following the trial, Piaf was quickly back performing in benefit concerts. page 100. Snippet view that she performed "benefits for war victims".
  • In December 1944, she performed for the Allied forces in Marseille, alongside Montand. page 100. Snippet view "December, they performed for the American soldiers stationed in Marseille" and then names Yves [Montand].
  • French media have continually published magazines, books, plays, television specials and films about the star, often on the anniversary of her death added page 232. Snippet view roughly confirms this, through page 234 or so.
  • This biography contained the false claim that Berteaut was Piaf's half-sister. pages 415-416. Not sure about those pages, but can confirm it on page 25.

• rfimusique "Edith Piaf biography" at Radio France Internationale. Staff writers. Used 7 times:
  • Édith Piaf's birth certificate indicates she was born in Paris on 19 December 1915, at the Hôpital Tenon hospital. This hospital is not mentioned in the source.
    N
    Found this in named reference universalis.
  • Leplée persuaded Piaf to sing despite her extreme nervousness. This nervousness and her height of only 142 centimetres (4 ft 8 in) This source says 147 cm (4'9 7/8"), and does not mention her nervousness. A second source is also cited and has 4-foot-eight, and also does not mention her nervousness.
    N
    Burke page 5 has "four feet ten inches" in snippet view, but I can't be sure what it is referring to (no other heights seem to be given, however).
  • A barrage of negative media attention now threatened Piaf's career. This source doesn't seem to make that connection; Leplee's death left her without a manager/patron/employer, and that derailed her career with or without the media attention. However, used alongside Allmusic, I feel it's good.
  • In 1944, Piaf performed in the Moulin Rouge cabaret venue in Paris, where she worked with singer/actor Yves Montand and began an affair with him. This source does not have the underlined part, but there is a second source.?
  • Between January 1955 and October 1962, Piaf performed several series of concerts at the Paris Olympia music hall.
  • Excerpts from five of these concerts (1955, 1956, 1958, 1961, 1962) were issued on vinyl record (and later on CD), and have never been out of print. In the 1961 concerts, promised by Piaf in an effort to save the venue from bankruptcy, she first sang Non, je ne regrette rien. Did not find the middle underlined part about the concerts being recorded, released on vinyl and CD, and never being out of print.
    N
  • They had an affair, which made international headlines since Cerdan was the former middleweight world champion, and at the time was married with three children. The source does not mention his marriage or children, instead attributing headlines to their mutual celebrity.
    N
• "csmonitor0707" The Christian Science Monitor. Used 6 times:
  • Her birth name was Édith Giovanna Gassion.
  • In 1935, Piaf (then still known by her birth name of Édith Gassion) was discovered by nightclub owner Louis Leplée.
  • inspired Leplée to give her the nickname La Môme Piaf, This source does not say what inspired the nickname, so strictly speaking this is synthesis, but it is readily verifiable from other sources so I'll give it a tick.
  • Leplée was murdered. Piaf was questioned and accused as an accessory, but acquitted.
  • During this time, she was in great demand and very successful in Paris A bit weak from this source, but generally verifiable.
  • After the war, she became known internationally,
• Unnamed reference "Two Paris Love Stories" Kiosque. Author Thirza Vallois is a Paris guide book author, and the piece is written as general interest around Valentine's day. Maybe not an expert source. Used once:
  • The name "Édith" was inspired by British nurse Edith Cavell, who was executed 2 months before Édith's birth for helping French soldiers escape from German captivity during World War I. Underlined part not in source. This can probably be found elsewhere, such as Burke page 6.
• "vansun" Freelance writer to a newspaper, writing about numerous events and promotions on the death anniversaries. Used four times:
  • N
    Okay, this is disappointing. This source does not verify any of the four passages in the article which are cited to it. The second instance, you can just remove it as there are two other sources to cover that passage. For the first, third and fourth, it's the only citation so the article needs sources which actually verify the material.
• three unnamed references, books in French: Arletty, confidences à son secrétaire, page 144; Monique Lange (auteur de Les cabines de bain); Monique Lange et Edmonde Charles-Roux à propos d' Edith Piaf | INA used once (together) for:
  • Édith's mother, Annetta Giovanna Maillard (1895–1945) was a singer and circus performer born in Italy who performed under the stage name "Line Marsa". The first source does not cover the underlined parts. I think that Burke says Piaf shared the middle name Giovanna with her mother. AGF on the rest.
• Four French-language references Édith Giovanna Gassion dite Édith Piaf, universalis, Edith Piaf Secrète et publique by Denise Gassion, Robert Morcet (offline), and "Death certificate Year 1890, France, Montluçon (03), 1890, N°501, 2E 191 194". Used once for one passage:
  • Annetta's father was Auguste Eugène Maillard (1866–1912) of French descent and Édith's grandmother was Emma (Aïcha) Saïd Ben Mohammed (1876–1930), an acrobat of Kabyle and Italian descent. The first source does nothing to verify any of this (and seems like an ad farm in any case). Universalis says Anita is of Italo-Kabyle origin. That's about it.
• There is an unnamed offline reference ISBN 9782020164535. Its inclusion of a quote and translation would seem that it is intended to be used as a source for Aïcha's birthplace, birthdate and ethnicity. Suggest moving it up one sentence (or more).
• Unnamed offline reference Piaf: A Passionate Life by David Bret. Bret writes sensationalistic biographies focusing on affairs and scandals, but this is used only for a date verification. AGF.
• Encyclopedia Britannica used once:
  • Piaf's mother abandoned her at birth

Broadness

• Reading through Burke via Google Books, pages 42–43 has an account of her nickname, with her singing "Comme un moineau" ("Like a Sparrow") when she met Leplée. (This might be too much detail for the prose but could perhaps be footnoted.)
• I'd like to see something to inform the readers (and future editors) about how at various times parts of the subject's biography have been mythologized. Some bits that could be used:
  • Biography.com Much of her past is shrouded in mystery and may have been embellished during her time as a celebrity. and Continuing the tradition of performing chansons réalistes, she commissioned songs that romanticized her life on the streets, passionately emphasizing her inner strength.
  • Burke, pages 25-26: ...Berteaut would write in her spirited but misleading life of the singer, in which she presents herself as Edith's half sister. Later in life, Piaf called Berteaut her mauvaise génie (the evil spirit who brought out the worst in her) and omitted her from her memoirs. and Berteaut's book is most reliable on their early years. and The younger girl's fixation on her "big sister," composed of gratitude, jealousy, and resentment, would warp her perceptions of their life together and her own role in Piaf's path to success.

• rfimusique has more on her pre-war career: She acted and performed (sang) in the film La Garçonne (1936 film) (in the film, Piaf scandalously seduces the leading lady). After this, she became a headliner in Paris venues. This is also in Burke page 47 which describes it as a cameo role.

Media

Three images and one sound clip. The images are tagged PD, CCPD and CCSA, all good.

The sound clip has a fair use rationale for the article Hymne à l'amour, an article on the song from which the clip was taken. However, there is no fair use rationale for the clip's inclusion with this article.

N

Suggest removing the sound clip from this article. If you want to make a fair use case for the clip in this article, the clip should be moved out of the infobox and to a relevant section of the article where the clip would support statements in the prose. Removed

The version from the last GA review had a few more images, all of which are tagged as public domain. It seems these were removed because the PD tag was for France only and not the US. I think there could be a fair use rationale for using some of them in the article.

General discussion

@Yadsalohcin and Reidgreg: Do either of you plan on returning to this? It's been two months.--Launchballer 02:04, 2 August 2025 (UTC)

@Launchballer thanks for asking. I keep a watch on it, having fixed the points in the 'Review comments' section above, but have run out of steam wrt the 'Criteria' section; no further plans at the moment. Yadsalohcin (talk) 08:08, 2 August 2025 (UTC)

@Yadsalohcin and Launchballer: My apologies; this has turned out to be much more work than I expected. I've continued to check sources and have been writing notes offline (up to reference 20) but haven't had a decent block of time to work on it for quite a while. I've encountered enough issues that I feel everything needs to be checked rather than just a "spot check". But perhaps I should just post what I have so far? – Reidgreg (talk) 00:10, 3 August 2025 (UTC)

@Reidgreg Thanks for working through this- clearly I'd been too complacent, as from what I'd seen I thought the article wasn't stacking up too badly against the refs... I'm happy to pick up the occasional set of requests for sorting on this article from time to time, tho' again, I can't guarantee an instant response. If there's going to be a lot to do (which sounds likely) then I'd rather have it in manageable drips than in one deluge, so please go ahead with what you've got. Yadsalohcin (talk) 00:21, 3 August 2025 (UTC)

@Yadsalohcin: I've posted some additional review comments. I wrote them probably a month ago so they may not reflect the current version of the article (as it's continued to be edited). I usually like to review all the referencing in a single post, but I have been putting this off for way too long. At this point, only the first quarter of the references have been examined in this review.

Before working further, I feel I should make a big-picture suggestion, though this is stepping well outside the GA criteria. The thing is, if I was taking the lead as primary author on this article, I'd be tempted to start over: to take the very best sources from the references section and any other high-quality sources I could find, and rewrite the article from scratch in draftspace to make sure everything is reliably sourced, neutral, and free of original research, copyvio, etc. Using the existing article as a guide for structure and content to look for, of course. I feel that might be the easier way to meet policy and would also bring the article well on its way to meeting FAC, if you have any aspirations in that direction.

But that's just me; it's established that I like making big "deluge" edits. We can continue working on this review in piecemeal fashion. – Reidgreg (talk) 14:47, 3 August 2025 (UTC)

• User:Yadsalohcin and User:Reidgreg: What is the status of this review? Bgsu98 (Talk) 15:23, 17 September 2025 (UTC)

  @Bgsu98 Regrettably I'm a bit snowed under now and for the foreseeable future, so my input here has largely stalled. -Yadsalohcin (talk) 10:23, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

  @Yadsalohcin: I can close this if you'd like and you can always resubmit it in the future. Any future reviewer can always refer back to these notes. Let me know what you think. Bgsu98 (Talk) 10:48, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

  @Bgsu98 I suspect that closing it would be the sensible thing to do. Thanks, -Yadsalohcin (talk) 14:39, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.