Captgouda24
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Regarding a recent edit of mine
editGreetings Captgouda24. I am messaging you about this recent edit where I restored some content which you had removed in good faith. Upon reflection, I realize that I easily could have given you the wrong impression with the edit summary I provided, and I apologize for that! I've thought of the many ways I could have expressed myself more collegially and I want you to know that I truly wish that I had. So, if you will, pardon my error, and let me welcome you here, and thank you for your interest and efforts to improve Wikipedia. I hope that you enjoy editing and that you will be here for a long time. If you have any questions or need help in any way, please feel free to ask on my talk page, anytime. I'll gladly help where I can. Sincerely.--John Cline (talk) 08:29, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Pete Klenow moved to draftspace
editThanks for your contributions to Pete Klenow. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it has no sources and it needs more sources to establish notability. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.
Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit for review" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. —Alalch E. 10:24, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi. I’m happy to add additional sources. I must protest that the description of his work is absolutely critical. Anyone who comes to wikipedia to learn about the work of economists is bound to leave in a state of ignorance. I am setting out on a project to change this — I believe that someone who wishes to learn about an economist on wikipedia should learn a little something about their work, too.
- This ideal is met in the better articles on economists. For example, Milton Friedman’s page has a more than adequate discussion of what he believed and why he believed it, and frequently refers to what he wrote where he wrote it. The findings in the articles cited have been referred to thousands of times; finding it in survey articles (such as the JEP or similar) will not be difficult. Captgouda24 (talk) 15:30, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: Pete Klenow (March 4)
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- Hello WeirdNAnnoyed,
- I agree on needing more independent citations, and will add them — in particular, I can structure the honors and awards to refer to sources from the awarding organizations. As for his work, it is often discussed in works which cite it — this is more tedious to track down, but works like HK2009 really are referred to as seminal basically every time they’re brought up.
- I would like to protest, though, that as stands now the subject is still notable. In particular, he satisfies criteria 1, 3, and 5 (and maybe 2, depending on how you define award/society membership). I think 1 is trivially showable through citation count alone — these are papers cited thousands of times.
- In something broader, I am a doctoral student in economics on a project to expand and improve Wikipedia’s coverage of economists. I believe that the worth of an economist is not their titles and awards, but their work; accordingly, a good economist biography should include a guide to their contributions to the field. Are citations by later, independent authors sufficient to show importance? Captgouda24 (talk) 18:18, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
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Hello, Captgouda24!
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 12:25, 4 March 2025 (UTC) |
Articles about economists
editI'm unfortunately in agreement with the above editors re: the draft on Pete Klenow, in that I don't know if there is sufficient secondary sourcing to support an article (at least, not among what's currently included in the draft). An unfortunate aspect of Wikipedia's notability guideline is that you can have a high h-index and tons of citations and not meet WP:GNG: what matters for notability is whether there is significant coverage in secondary sources about the article subject specifically. If I have time, I'll see what I can find – do you know if there are any sources which specifically discuss Klenow and/or the impact of his work?
You ask above: Are citations by later, independent authors sufficient to show importance?
A paper by Klenow being cited by future papers is not itself sufficient for Wikipedia to have content describing Klenow's paper (or to contribute to Klenow's notability) – it would need to describe the paper's importance and context, and be more than a passing mention. The general vibe of Wikipedia is that we, as everyday volunteer editors, are not qualified to interpret primary sources to come to conclusions (WP:OR) – instead, we rely on secondary sources to make these interpretations, which we can then cite. This degree of separation helps a lot towards maintaining neutrality in contentious areas, but as you've noticed can make writing about academics more difficult as this type of source can be sparse. Even if something is commonly known in the field, or commonly deducible from a couple primary sources, we (generally) need a secondary source which says it. For me that's the fun part, but I get it can be frustrating.
I've been thinking about reliable sources about economists a decent amount lately – I'm planning to, later this year, work on some econometricians' articles which are particularly lacking (e.g., Karl A. Fox, Arthur Goldberger, Halbert White) and finding sources has been difficult. Scott Cunningham's substack (imo) is a secondary reliable source in this field, and he has a lot of content about the credibility revolution which could be used to rewrite the page credibility revolution and articles on a number of econometricians. There are also papers like Undergraduate Econometrics Instruction: Through Our Classes, Darkly, i.e., retrospectives on the field, which include so much useful information for Wikipedia articles. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️🌈) 20:36, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
- I can find citations discussing his work. Obviously this is more tedious, but it can be done. Klenow has not broken into outlets like the economist or similar, but that is simply the product of modesty, not a lack of importance in the field. In poking around, I have found favorable references in marginal revolution, which I can include. I do think Klenow is clearly notable on the grounds of being an endowed chair at Stanford in economics, which clobbers point five, as well as a member of the econometric society.
- I am concerned that this level of scrutiny is misdirected. I don’t think anyone disagrees with the tenor of the coverage, or the importance of the work for the field. The purpose of procedure should be to get us to good outcomes — we do not follow it for its own sake. There exist numerous articles on economists which would be flunked under this standard. I would not regard junking any discussion of what economists actually do as a positive development. Having biographies be a list of titles would be empty. There would be no economics in it. That’s the whole reason I’m undertaking this project — I want a novice interested in someone’s work to be able to read, in 500 words, what they did, how they did it, and why it matters.
- I do have some ability, if need be, to prompt secondary sources to exist. I am unsure of the ethics of this. It would not, in any event, be making a false consensus, but simply getting what everyone already thinks on paper.
- In your search for reliable sources, there are some journals which are, in all practical fact, secondary sources. The JEP and JEL stand out. I have not put the draft on Wikipedia here, but my survey of Dave Donaldson relies heavily on Daron Acemoglu’s coverage of his work in the JEP. In addition, I would look at afinetheorem, Kevin Bryan’s blog, which has superb surveys of many noted economists. Captgouda24 (talk) 22:59, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
- I've added coverage from the Economist, WSJ, and US Treasury Klenow's work to your draft article. I've also added a link to the AAAS bio to verify his membership. As long as your sources are independent of the subject (e.g. not the CV), you should be able to establish notability via WP:ACADEMIC criteria 3 and 5.Nickknack00 (talk) 01:36, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
- For the most part, I agree with you – my message was intended primarily to communicate norms about a community which you are new to. While we have WP:IAR, which lines up pretty well with your "The purpose of procedure..." sentence, it's not really something that can be invoked for scenarios like this. And thank you for starting this project, the topic area needs it.
- You bring up multiple issues that make writing encyclopedia entries about economists difficult: professional modesty means people are less likely to seek out media attention proactively, and when that type of secondary coverage does exist it's often not a good introduction to the actual economics that they're doing (such that we'd be left with a list of titles). The goal is (usually, I hope) to give the type of introduction for a novice that you describe, it just requires some more work in sourcing it. In reviewing Chang-Tai Hsieh, I found a number of articles (including in the JEP and JEL) which provided secondary characterizations of Hseih's work. These are great secondary sources, and are preferable to citing only Hseih's work directly, as they place the work in the context of the field. This also applies to articles which are not explicitly reviews but provide that same type of characterization of someone's work. The standard, then, is whether there is enough of this in-depth secondary coverage. In Klenow's case, after reading up on Hsieh's work I think there definitely is, and I agree with Nickknack00 that he meets 3 and 5.
- Re: the ethics of asking people to write about something, I personally don't think that's a problem at all. If everyone is thinking something that isn't on paper, it would be great to get it on paper (in a secondary reliable source) so that Wikipedia can use it. Just watch out for WP:SELFCITE, if that applies. Best, Vermont (🐿️—🏳️🌈) 03:56, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
- I've resubmitted the Klenow article for review after adding independent citations for the content written by Captgouda24 . Vermont, these are really helpful comments to me, too! Helps me to see how you've improved the Hsieh article. Nickknack00 (talk) 14:57, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
Chang-Tai Hsieh
editHi, made some updates to your draft article on Chang-Tai Hsieh. I think it unambigously meets notability standards, so I pushed it to the queue for article review. Thanks for all your work reviewing his works! Nickknack00 (talk) 00:15, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you! These are absolutely fantastic, and it looks great. I will make sure to match the style when uploading later articles. (First Donaldson, then Arkolakis-Costinot-Rodriguez-Clare, then Melitz, then Peter Hull, Kirill Borusyak, and Xavier Jaravel).
- \
- Have you worked in economics before, personally? Captgouda24 (talk) 02:23, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
- I work in an adjacent field, so I'm familiar Hsieh's work. My relevant expertise here is gathering enough third-party sources that actually notable people are correctly rated as notable.Nickknack00 (talk) 14:37, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
- Excited to know about your next projects. I think your research summaries are great, they just need some independent biographical details to move through the Wikipedia-specific standards for academic bios. Nickknack00 (talk) 14:46, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
- Cosmetic recommendation for biographical article reviews: 1. put your article links in Wiki format. There's no formatting webtool for this anymore, but LLMs can help as long as you do QC. 2. Add the Authority Control template. It will help link to other biographic databases and help you find sources. 3. If you use the "Articles for Creation" approach, tag with the "Economics" Wikiproject so you get reviewers who evaluate with field-relevant knowledge, not only general standards for living people biographies.Nickknack00 (talk) 14:46, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
- I've added a few secondary sources which support the draft's descriptions and characterizations of Hseih's work, and moved it to mainspace. Best, Vermont (🐿️—🏳️🌈) 03:28, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: Lydia Cox (March 12)
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- meet any of the eight academic-specific criteria
- or cite multiple reliable, secondary sources independent of the subject, which cover the subject in some depth
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Jacob Moscona (March 26)
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- They are quite pointedly largely not primary sources. I found news coverage for all of them, and the underlying research is linked as a courtesy. Captgouda24 (talk) 05:48, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: Costas Arkolakis (March 28)
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- meet any of the eight academic-specific criteria
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- 1, 3, 7, 8.
- I am continuing to add to this draft, but the discussion by Acemoglu on Dave Donaldson is sufficient to show notability. I cannot emphasize enough, his work is extremely important, and he is one of the best trade theorists of his generation. Captgouda24 (talk) 01:07, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
- I have no doubt that you're right, but you need to make this explicit and verifiable, for example have any particular contributions been widely cited in peer reviewed journals and how can other editors check this? The 'Specific Criteria Notes under WP:PROF are particularly useful in this regard. Flat Out (talk) 02:45, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: Richard Hornbeck (April 2)
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Arnaud Costinot has been accepted
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Spinster300 (talk) 16:18, 3 April 2025 (UTC)AfC notification: Draft:Peter Hull (economist) has a new comment
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- Thank you for doing so. Hopefully you can accept the article.
- My personal opinion is the Prof. Hull is a vastly more important figure, has a 30% chance of winning the JBC and a 40% chance of winning the Nobel, and is one of the most exciting young economists out there, so I’d prefer he be the default. I understand waiting, though. Captgouda24 (talk) 07:30, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: Richard Hornbeck (May 8)
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Costas Arkolakis (June 1)
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- meet any of the eight academic-specific criteria
- or cite multiple reliable, secondary sources independent of the subject, which cover the subject in some depth
1. The person's research has had a significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources: He is well defined in econom8cs but the draft lacks reliable sources to convey that, which may include reviews of his works on that field, etc.
2. The person has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level: I wouldn't consider being an elected a fellow of the Econometric Society as one of this. At least it isn't demonstrated by a reliable source. See WP:RS.- If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Costas Arkolakis and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Peter Hull (economist) (June 3)
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Peter Hull (economist) (August 12)
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Your submission at Articles for creation: Costas Arkolakis (August 24)
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- meet any of the eight academic-specific criteria
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Concern regarding Draft:Jacob Moscona
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Concern regarding Draft:Lydia Cox
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Your draft article, Draft:Jacob Moscona
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Your draft article, Draft:Lydia Cox
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Your draft article, Draft:Andres Rodriguez-Clare
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Your draft article, Draft:Peter Hull (economist)
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