Talk:Takfiri

Some more information

From de Volkskrant, "Vrouwen rond Hofstadgroep worstelen met verhoor" [Women surrounding Hofstad group wrestle with interrogation], by Volkskrant reporters Janny Groen and Annieke Kranenberg, published 3 Sept 2005:

"Takfiri verklaren andersdenkenden tot ongelovigen die bestreden, of zelfs gedood moeten worden. Zij mogen onder geen beding meewerken aan welk westers systeem dan ook. Westerse democratie en rechtsinstellingen zijn door mensen bedacht; takfiri zijn alleen verantwoording schuldig aan Allah.

Mohammed B. heeft zich als een voorbeeldige takfiri gedragen. Hij werkte niet mee aan verhoren, boycotte het psychiatrisch onderzoek en wilde zich niet door een advocaat laten vertegenwoordigen."

My rough translation:

"Takfiri consider people of a different opinion as unbelievers who have to be combatted or even killed. They must under no condition cooperate with any Western system whatsoever. Western democracy and institutions of justice are invented by humans; takfiri only answer to Allah.

Mohammed B. behaved as an examplar takfiri. He did not cooperate with interrogations, he boycotted the psychiatric investigation and he did not want to be represented by a lawyer."

Mohammed B. is the murderer of Theo van Gogh (film director), and the article is about the attitude of women who had been in contact with Mohammed B., particularly his former girl friend, during the police investigation. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Is this group identical with Takfir wal Hijra, or are they different? It's currently difficult to tell. —Charles P. (Mirv) 06:18, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Takfir wal Hijra

Seems fairly clear to me that someone intended this article to address the Takfir wal Hijra and didn't know much about that movement, so filled up the article with imprecations. This article should be turned into a redirect to Takfir wal Hijra. I don't think there's any real info here that needs to be saved. Zora 18:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Takfir wal Hijra

I'm going to merge any useful material with Takfir wal Hijra and redirect this article within a couple of days, unless I hear objections from other editors. Zora 01:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

No! Takfir wal-Hijra is one specific example of a takfiri organization. This article should be about takfiris in general, not just Takfir wal-Hijra. GCarty 12:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm ... takfiri is just one of the names Muslims call each other ... like munafiq, hypocrite. What movements other than Takfir wal Hijra do you consider takfiri? Zora 12:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm, I'd say Al-Qaeda in Iraq and the Groupe Islamique Armé are also examples of takfiri organizations. GCarty 16:23, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Takfiri Philosophy

Picking up from the above discussion, I think the term 'takfiri' as used between Muslims is more than a generic insult... it has become an important philosophical distinction for Muslims. There are some interesting parallels in Western philosophy. I don't know how appropriate it is to mix between civilizations, but I added links to Consequentialism and from "The ends justify the means" as related concepts. Comments? Spir 07:28, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the article is not worded neutrally, but makes pro-saudi statements such as this here:

"The act of accusing other Muslims of being takfiri has become a sectarian slur, particularly since the outbreak of the Syrian Civil War in 2011, as when used by Shi'a groups such as Hezbollah to refer indiscriminately to Sunnis." I don't think Wikipedia should pick a side, it should try to refer to things objectively from a neutral angle, and the way how the article is currently worded, contradicts this. 80.110.83.124 (talk) 00:35, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Major rewrite

I distinguished between two ways that the term is used today: in a neutral way, to refer to followers of Takfir wal-Hijra, and as an epithet, to be flung at Wahabis and Salafis. I tried to give a neutral account of its use as an epithet. However, the bits I wrote desperately need quotes and references. It's nearly 4 AM here and I have to get up and go to class in six hours, so I'll leave it here. I hope that those of you quarreling over this article will be willing to fill in the blanks in the sections for your own opinions, and will be able to refrain from removing the sections for those who don't share your opinions. Zora 13:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

For Admins, please take a look at the history of the article. Users such as User:Sun shinez forever, User:No problem 1254, User:Dreamz rosez, User:Heats of heaven, and possibly many others, were created as a revertign machine for this article. Not to mention his many random IPs. They are probably sockpuppets of a radical user with an obious agenda. As User:Zora said: The article is being used to attack religious groups with which the editor does not agree. --AraLink 06:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as the one who protected the article: This was a long-running content dispute with no attempts having been made to discuss it on the talk page. Some versions probably had WP:NPOV problems but the point of protecting the article is to force the feuding parties to come to some agreement on a version which represents all viewpoints. Once you feel that has been achieved, place a request for unprotection at WP:RFPP. —dgies^t_c 06:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Takfiri Salafists

That is the term I see most often as synonymous for Al-Qae?da or quasi AQ. here is a quote of its use from a random google search

• It is takfiri Salafist (Sunni) extremist ideology that menaces the world. Shi'ite extremism is a different animal entirely -- and much more amenable to control by religious hierarchies. Sunni Imams, conversely, are freelancers. That's why it can legitimate an apostate group like al Qaeda.Godspeed John Glenn! Will 01:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Please rewrite

I saw the word takfiris in an article and having never seen it before, wondered what it meant. So I came to Wikipedia and sad to say I still don't know what the word means. I hope that you will rewrite the article to make the word more comprehensible. Sbowers3 22:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No Muslim Scholars use the term “Takfiri-Salafis”.

The terms “Salafi” and “Takfiri” are mutually exclusive terms as far as the Ulema (Scholars of Islam) are concerned. The only ones that commonly fuse those terms are some Non-Muslim researchers/writers.

Using this term may confuse readers, as the Salafi scholars, students of knowledge, laymen and laywomen are the harshest critics of Takfiri ideology. The Salafis use the Qur’an and Sunnah as the daleel (proof) against this sect of chaos and destruction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.66.106.71 (talk) 03:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

All of the Salafis do not have Takfir. some of them have and some does not have. Takfiri Salafis simply means any Salifi who commits Takfir. and there are many scholars use the term. Ahmadi 15:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Hezbollah is not a Takfiri group

at the end of article it has called Hezbollah as a Takfiri group and this link is mentioned as the source. I checked this link and could not find any evidence for this claim that Hezbollah is a Takfiri group. I am going to remove this claim from this article within a couple of days, unless I hear objections from other editors. evidence from sayings of Hezbollah leader (Sayyed Hasan Nasrullah) is needed to can consider Hezbollah as a Takfiri group unless this is a baseless accusation. Ahmadi 15:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Completely agree. Hezbollah is fighting Saudi Takfiri group, so it makes no sense to claim that Hezbollah is a Takfiri group. 80.110.83.124 (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

It doensn't matter if a Shia group mentions other groups as Takfiri, or viceversa. To keep the neutral point of view, it's sufficient to mention that it's used by many groups (whether Sunni, Shia, etc); also, the source included is indeed unrelated. --92slim (talk) 20:37, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Hezbollah is a Shia group, and the Shia doctrine teaches that Sunnis are not Muslims. (though they will deny this and lie) In this sense Hezbollah should be on here. But the whole word 'takfiri' is nonsense. Takfir is something you do, not something you are. Sunni make takfir on Shia, Shia make takfir on Sunni. Neither should be described as 'takfiris' because takfir is a verb not a noun.

oh and before someone comes and says: Shia dont make takfir on Sunni!!!here is the evidence, okay so this following quotes are from the major historical shia scholars

• Allama Abdullah al Mamqani wrote in Tanqihul Maqal (Major shia rijal book), Volume 1 Page 208 (published in Najaf): ": "The conclusion that is reached from the ahadith is that the ruling of kafir (disbeliever) and mushrik (polytheist) would apply in the hereafter upon anyone who is not a Shia Ithna Ash'ari (i.e. Twelver Shia)."
• Shaikh Yusuf al Bahrani stated in Hadaiqul Nadhirah, Volume 18 Page 53: "Indeed you know that the non shia has no share in Islam in any way, as we revealed in our book Shahab al Thaqib."
• Baqir Majlisi declared in Biharul Anwar, Volume 23 Page 290 (Published in Beirut): "Note that the terms shirk (polytheism) and kufr (disbelief) apply to one who does not believe in the Imamah of Ali (as) or his progeny, and gives precedence to others over them, proving that they are kuffar destined to reside in hell."

and from the modern scholars:

• What is meant by the term 'momin'(believer), is Shia Ithna Ash'ari only. . So whenever brotherhood is implied in religious interpretations, it must be kept in mind that non shias our by no means our brothers.Makasibul Muhramah by Ayatullah Khomeini, Volume 1 page 250
• It is a matter of basic common sense that there is no brotherhood or support/partnership between us shias and the non Shias. Misbahul fuqahah by Ayatullah Khoei, Volume 1 page 505
• The attribution of iman (belief) and brotherhood towards non shias is completely invalid. There are explicit and mutawatir ahadith which invalidate this claim, furthermore there are mutawatir ahadith from the Imams (as) mocking and cursing the non shias, as well as calling them worse than Jews and Christians, and filthier than dogs.Riyadul Masail by Ayatullah Ali Tabatabai, Volume 8 page 68

okay so those are just a few quotes from the historical and modern shiite scholars making takfir on sunnis

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.112.144.10 (talk) 10:25, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Takfiri as a movement - pejorative term or self-description?

(My understanding of this topic is limited to a broadcast of Aljazeera today and reading this article)

It seems to me Takfiri is used a lot by people opposed to them. Is there any group or organization that describes itself as Takfiri? The definitions given here seem to make that unlikely: if a Takfiri is a Muslim who says another Muslim isn't a Muslim, then obviously all Takfiri are wrong. So either the definition is different from the self-definition, or it is a term people don't self-apply. Renke (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

usually no Muslim describe himself as Takfiri. the first Takfir group in history of Islam were Kharijates. the Takfirs is known from sayings and practice of the Takfiri Muslims and not from self-describe. it is a bitter truth. it is not a pejorative term in fact but perhaps someone use it as pejorative term about Muslims who are not in fact Takfir. it is Movement mostly with political reasons like getting power and Takfir is a justification for killing the competitor. 151.242.27.38 (talk) 23:40, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism

Some with a 92.24.243.225 IP removed some parts of the article without discussing it in the talk page and telling the reason. I'll undo this, if no rational reason is presented.Mhhossein (talk) 19:04, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Takfiri as a pejorative sectarian term

As a result of reliably sourced additions to this article been repeatly deleted with no discussion, an incident at the administrator's notice board regarding this issue has been opened . Please discuss the matter here as simply reverting accurate, valid, and referenced material from the article is not an option. Nulla Taciti (talk) 16:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

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Kafir/Kuffar

The first paragraph of this page uses the words kafir and kuffar. Kuffar links to a page titled Kafir. Are the two not interchangeable for some reason or should they be synchronised? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akyuun (talk • contribs) 20:35, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Kuffar is a plural of kafir --Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Expanding

Expanding giving examples of takfir in recent decades. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Remove Islamically false statement

I found this statement:

> with one hadith declaring that one who wrongly declares another Muslim to be an unbeliever is themself an apostate.

This is the incorrect intepretation of the Hadith in Sunni Islam.

The saying of the Prophet : "It would return (bounce back) to one of them," does not mean that the sayer becomes a Kaafir (disbeliever) and goes out of the fold of Islam. Rather, it means that the Takfeer (describing a Muslim as disbeliever) returns to him; that is to say, it is as if he accused himself of Kufr when he accused his Muslim brother of Kufr.

Tuhfat-ul-Ahwathi reads, "Him declaring his Muslim brother as a Kaafir returning to him means that what returns is the Takfeer, and not the Kufr itself; it is as if he is accusing himself of Kufr because of him declaring someone else like him as a Kaafir, while that person cannot be declared as a Kaafir except by a non-Muslim who believes that the religion of Islam is false..."

Ibn Hajar said in Fat-h Al-Baari: "The hadeeth is within the context of deterring the Muslim from saying that to his Muslim brother ... It was also said: the meaning is that his despise of his Muslim brother returned back to him, and the sin of accusing his brother of Kufr is upon him, and this is reasonable. It was also said: It is feared that this would lead him to Kufr, as it is said that sins are a means that leads to Kufr, so it is feared that whoever commits them regularly and insists on committing them, that there would be an evil end to his life [i.e. he would die upon committing them]. The most preponderant opinion is that whoever said this to a person who is known to be a Muslim and there is nothing doubtful about him to justify this claim, then he becomes a Kaafir by that (i.e. it sounds as if he declared himself to be a Kaafir because Kufr must be applied to one of the two)… so the meaning of the hadeeth is: "…his Takfeer would bounce back to him"; what returns is the Takfeer, and not the Kufr; it is as if he declared himself to be a Kaafir because of him declaring someone else like him to be a Kaafir, while that person cannot be declared to be a Kaafir except by a non-Muslim who believes that the religion of Islam is false. This meaning is supported by the other wording in some narrations of the same hadeeth: "…then Kufr must be applied to one of them.

Al-Qurtubi said, "In brief, if the accused person is indeed a Kaafir according to the Shariah, then the sayer has said the truth and the accused bears it. But if the accused is not a Kaafir, then the sin of the accusation bounces back to the accuser. This is the interpretation that could be said about the meaning of ‘bounces back’ and this is one of the most appropriate answers."

It is also interpreted to mean minor Kufr according to some scholars. Evidence includes the hadeeth narrated by Thaabit ibn Adh-Dhahhaak and reported by Al-Bukhaari. Thaabit narrated that the Prophet said, "Cursing a Muslim is like killing him, and whoever accuses a believer of Kufr, it is like killing him." [Al-Bukhaari]

Killing is not Kufr, and he drew a resemblance between killing and accusing a believer of Kufr. Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah said in Al-Istiqaamah, "He called him 'brother' when he mentioned him, and he said, 'It falls back on him.' If one of them had completely gone out of the fold of Islam, he would not be called 'brother.'"

Ibn Qudaamah said, "These ahaadeeth were meant to show the seriousness of this act and to deter people from resembling the Kaafirs, and it is not really meant that a person who said so becomes a Kaafir."

It is important to know that this threat applies to a Muslim who declares another Muslim as a Kaafir without misinterpretation or doubt. However, if someone declares another Muslim as a Kaafir with a justifiable misinterpretation and doubt, then the threat that is mentioned in the hadeeth does not apply to him, even if he wrongly judged him to be a Kaafir.

When Imaam Al-Bukhaari reported this hadeeth in his Saheeh, he wrote a chapter after it which he entitled: "Scholars who did not view as Kaafir the one who said that with misinterpretation or out of ignorance," and he mentioned the saying of ‘Umar to Haatib ibn Abi Balta’ah, "He is a hypocrite," in it.

Ibn Al-Qayyim said in Zaad Al-Ma‘aad about the story of ‘Umar with Haatib, may Allaah be pleased with both of them: "If a man attributes to a Muslim hypocrisy or disbelief out of misinterpretation or anger for Allah, His Messenger, and His religion, and not due to following his whims and personal interest, then he does not become a disbeliever by that and is not even sinful for it; rather, he will be rewarded for his intention. This is contrary to the people who follow their whims and desires and the innovators, who declare other people as disbelievers and innovators because of them being different from their whims and ways, while it is more appropriate that the disbelief and innovation apply to them rather than to those whom they considered as Kaafirs and innovators."

As you can see from the aforementioned sources: 1. it is generally not perceived as apostasy to call a Muslim a kafir 2. it is also important to note that this hadith ONLY applies to the one who takfirs another out of his own whims and desires, e.g if a Muslim went up to another Muslim and said "O Kafir!", the threat of the hadith and sin of the act would apply to him. Whereas if someone truly thinks that man is a Kaafir there is no sin even if incorrect ~2025-31163-04 (talk) 13:10, 4 November 2025 (UTC)

(Note: I am OP, I tried logging in but for some reason it didnt give me the comment)

servant of the Avenger | لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا اللّٰهُ مُخْلِصينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْكَافِرُون 19:10, 4 November 2025 (UTC) servant of the Avenger | لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا اللّٰهُ مُخْلِصينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْكَافِرُون 19:10, 4 November 2025 (UTC)