Talk:Prilep

Why is aldux removing the greek name from the article but seems to be maintaining that the turkish name is absolutely essential to articles on places in Greece where the are no turks? //Dirak 12:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Birth place of Bruce Wayne

Do you have any idea if the rumors, that Bruce Wayne was born here, but moved to Gotham City when he was 8 years old, are true? I don't see any references for popular people, that's why I am asking the question. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.96.161.227 (talk) 12:35, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Tsar Samoil?

why on earth does it say Tsar samuel 'of bulgaria' ?

everybody knows he was a macedonian tsar.

if its gonna cause contraversy i dont think it should even be mentioned at all

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Image:Asterisks.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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suboe e da ziveeesvo masedonija —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.135.190.193 (talk) 08:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

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Spas Igumenov

In 1891, the Constantinople newspaper of the Bulgarian Exarchate "Novini" published a "Clear Refutation by Priest Spas Igumenov" in response to accusations that he was an accomplice and perpetrator of Uniate and Serbian propaganda. He stated: "With pride I confess my Bulgarian nationality and recognize the spiritual authority of the Holy Bulgarian Exarchate in Constantinople."

Hi, User:Kkapidan. It is not accepted here that some primary sources are reliable, and other primary sources are declared by you to be unreliable. Also, the episodic thrusts of a marginal local person cannot take up a large part of the article. Also you deleted a large part of his biography that you probably don't like. Better create a separate article for him. Keep in mind that in Bulgarian there is one, backed with a lot of sources, and in Macedonian there is one, but backed with only one source.

In the late 19th century the Macedonian Orthodox community began resisting the Greek and early Bulgarian pressures. The Macedonian Orthodox community rejected the authority of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and sought an independent Church. They replaced Greek with Macedonian in religious services and education, preparing textbooks in their native language. During this push for national identity, Bulgarian intellectuals tried to impose the Bulgarian language, especially after the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870 and the Bulgarian Principality in 1878. Despite pressure, Prilep resisted Bulgarian control, maintaining its own school and religious practices. The locals, led by priest Spase Igumenov, petitioned Sultan Abdul Hamid II, declaring their desire for a Macedonian national school and rejecting Bulgarian ecclesiastical authority, while affirming their Orthodox faith under papal protection. In their letter to the Sultan, they wrote:

"We, the undersigned from the city of Prilep, subjects of His Imperial Majesty, the august Sultan Abdul Hamid II, wish to have a national Macedonian school. And since we are not Bulgarians, we do not recognize the Bulgarian Ecclesiastical Community nor its schools. For religious protection, we recognize the Pope, but without changing the dogmas of the Orthodox Church."

The local priest Spas Igumenov was initially an activist of the Bulgarian Exarchate. However later he refused to obey the Bulgarian Exarch, declaring himself as independent priest and was dismissed from the Church and accused of corruption. He was killed in 1904 by an IMRO activists after had defected to the Serbian side. was afterwards suspected of ties to the Serbian authorities and the Catholic Church, but he himself denied this. However later he refused to obey the Bulgarian Exarch and was dismissed from the Church and accused of corruption. He was killed in 1904 by an IMRO activists after had defected to the Serbian side. 13:11, 11 October 2025 (UTC) Jingiby (talk) 13:11, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

User:Kkapidan, please, stop edit-warring. The text you have added says: Prilep resisted Bulgarian control, maintaining its own school and religious practices. The locals, led by priest Spase Igumenov, etc. You have deleted a document I have added. It is signed by himself where he states "With pride I confess my Bulgarian nationality and recognize the spiritual authority of the Holy Bulgarian Exarchate in Constantinople", and so on. Discuss to gain a consensus. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 16:48, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

Hello Jingiby. It appears that you are initiating an edit conflict. You removed my contribution, which accurately stated that the priest refused to comply with the Exarch and declared himself an independent cleric, unaffiliated with the Exarchate. Your justification that the article is not about a relatively obscure individual seems inconsistent, especially now that you are attempting to insert a biased edit emphasizing his self-identification as Bulgarian.

If this approach continues, we risk turning the article into a battleground for an individual rather than preserving its focus on the city itself. I urge you to consider the broader context and maintain editorial neutrality to avoid endless disputes. Kkapidan (talk) 16:59, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

I think your answers are like generated by artificial intelligence. They say nothing. This person was one of the first leaders of the Bulgarian community in the town, which later came under Serbian influence and finally was shot by order of the IMRO as a harmful element. The document you have added itself was signed by a dozen people, most of them Serbomans. Jingiby (talk) 17:35, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

My answer means that you removed my WHOLE contribution, not just the edit where I wrote that he proclaimed himself as "independent priest", under the pretext that "the article is not about almost unknown individual", while you continued posting your edits exactly about the same topic.

I cited what I read in the source. And yes, it is not disputable he had contacts with the Serbs, but the Serbian authorities considered him as Catholic agent. And about his death, it is disputed, since there are documents where Varnava appoints him as priest in the church in Prilep in 1912.

Do you have any proof that the people that signed the document were Srbomans? Kkapidan (talk) 17:49, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

Алекса Ковачевиќ (Алекса Попов), претседател на тогашната српска црковно-училишна општина во градот“, која се форми-рала во 1879 година...Врз основа на овие записи можеме да заклучиме дека кон крајот на XIX и почетокот на XX век во Прилеп се чувствувало засилено српско влијание, спротивставено на бугарската пропаганда. Со цел да продре посилно меѓу прилепското граѓанство, со помош на српските дипломатски служби било отворено српско училиште во градот во 1879 година. Откако српскиот образовен елемент се зацврстил, по неполни десет години се поставиле основите и на нов црковен субјект, покрај Патријаршијата и Егзархијата. Иницијативата за градење на параклисот била дадена уште во 1884 година од страна на Алекса, претседател на тогашната српска црковно-училишна општина во градот...На 2 јули истата, 1887 година, до османлиските власти, заедно со свештеникот Спасе Игуменов, напишале Изјава за отфрлање на Бугарската егзархија и осамостојување на црковна православна маке-донска општина... In English: Aleksa Kovačević (Aleksa Popov), president of the then Serbian church-school municipality in the city, which was formed in 1879... Based on these records, we can conclude that at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, a strong Serbian influence was felt in Prilep, opposed to Bulgarian propaganda. In order to penetrate more strongly among the Prilep citizens, with the help of the Serbian diplomatic services, a Serbian school was opened in the city in 1879. After the Serbian educational element had strengthened, less than ten years later the foundations of a new church entity were laid, in addition to the Patriarchate and the Exarchate. The initiative for the construction of the chapel was given back in 1884 by Aleksa, president of the then Serbian church-school municipality in the city... On July 2, 1887, together with the priest Spase Igumenov, they wrote to the Ottoman authorities a Statement rejecting the Bulgarian Exarchate and establishing the independence of the Macedonian Orthodox Church Municipality. In: Lucheska, Eli. “ПРВИЧНАТА ЦРКВА СВ. КИРИЛ И МЕТОДИЈ (ПАРАКЛИС) ВО ПРИЛЕП.” Balcanoslavica 48, Issue 1-2 48, no. 1-2 (2019): 141–146.

I think the best course would be to continue discussing, Jingiby and Local hero. I agree with the removal of additional picture, since there are many pictures as it is now. On the other hand, I think this whole paragraph is entirely undue:

In the late 19th century, the Macedonian Orthodox community in Prilep began resisting the Greek and early Bulgarian pressures. The Macedonian Orthodox community rejected the authority of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and sought an independent Church. They replaced Greek with Macedonian in religious services and education, preparing textbooks in their native language. During this push for national identity, Bulgarian intellectuals tried to impose the Bulgarian language, especially after the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870 and the Bulgarian Principality in 1878. Despite pressure, Prilep resisted Bulgarian control, maintaining its own school and religious practices.

It contradicts other sources. The main struggle at the time was between the Exarchate and the Patriarchate. There is no solid evidence that there was a significant third community challenging the Exarchate and the Patriarchate. It is also misleading to present the Exarchate as entirely ethnic Bulgarian and the Patriarchate as entirely ethnic Greek, since those institutions also had other ethnic groups as members. The content makes it seem like the Exarchate had zero control over Prilep in the late 19th century, which was not the case at all. As per Vemund Aarbake, most villages in the area of Prilep ended up under the control of the Exarchate. Here are what other sources have to say about the matter:

The Macedonian Question, 1893-1908, from Western Sources, ISBN 9780880333832, p. 9: A struggle, with sometimes violent aspects, for the conquest of the Macedonian dioceses developed between the partisans of the Patriarchate and those of the Exarchate, for according to article 10 of the decree, the residents of a locality where two-thirds of the population chose the Exarchate could make the entire community adhere to the Bulgarian Church. In fact, the Macedonian populations living near the Bulgarian frontier, thus towns like Veles, Uskub, Ichtip, Prilep, Monastir became “exarchates.”

Roma Writings: Romani Literature and Press in Central, South-Eastern and Eastern Europe from the 19th Century Until World War II (p. 27: In the plebiscite of 1873 in the town of Prilep, more than two-thirds of the inhabitants of the city, including local Roma, declared their wish to belong to the Bulgarian Exarchate, which had been influenced also by Iliya Naumchev’s enlightenment activities among them.

StephenMacky1 (talk) 16:51, 14 October 2025 (UTC)

Hello StephenMacky1, thanks for joining the talk.

Aleksa Kovačević (Aleksa Popov), president of the then Serbian church-school municipality in the city, which was formed in 1879... Based on these records, we can conclude that at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, a strong Serbian influence was felt in Prilep, opposed to Bulgarian propaganda. In order to penetrate more strongly among the Prilep citizens, with the help of the Serbian diplomatic services, a Serbian school was opened in the city in 1879. After the Serbian educational element had strengthened, less than ten years later the foundations of a new church entity were laid, in addition to the Patriarchate and the Exarchate. The initiative for the construction of the chapel was given back in 1884 by Aleksa, president of the then Serbian church-school municipality in the city... On July 2, 1887, together with the priest Spase Igumenov, they wrote to the Ottoman authorities a Statement rejecting the Bulgarian Exarchate and establishing the independence of the Macedonian Orthodox Church Municipality. In: Lucheska, Eli. “ПРВИЧНАТА ЦРКВА СВ. КИРИЛ И МЕТОДИЈ (ПАРАКЛИС) ВО ПРИЛЕП.” Balcanoslavica 48, Issue 1-2 48, no. 1-2 (2019): 141–146.

As I mentioned, the Serbians considered Igumenov only as friend because of the common struggle, and considered him as Catholic agent. From the Serbian archives, Igumenov requested travel to Belgrade because, as he claimed, the Ottoman authorities were pursuing him because of intrigue of "Bulgarian propaganda". He wanted support from Serbia because of that matter.

Građa za istoriju makedonskog naroda iz Arhiva Srbije: knj. 1. 1890 (p. 203)

In the letter sent from the Serbian consul in Bitola, Dimitrije Bodi, the consul says that Igumenov may be potentional ally that may help to support the Serbian efforts in Prilep, but he may be compromised and calls him Catholic agent and weapon of the Catholic propaganda in the region. Because of that, the consul suggests hiring an agent that must a doctor or teacher, instead of priest, for example Dr. Pravica, a respected doctor from Prilep. Other than that, the consul suggests establishing vice-consulate in Prilep to counter the Bulgarian and Catholic propaganda, which in this case is aimed against their suspected efforts of Igumenov, since they consider him to be Catholic agent.

Građa za istoriju makedonskog naroda iz Arhiva Srbije: knj. 1. 1890 (p. 174-177)

In my opinion, Serbian authorities didn't influence Spas Igumenov into splitting from the Exarchate. The letter also explains that the idea for Serbian school in Prilep that they expected from Igumenov failed.

The content makes it seem like the Exarchate had zero control over Prilep in the late 19th century, which was not the case at all.

Of course not. That is why I also added a contribution, that by 1893 almost all of Prilep was under Exarchate control, under the paragraph that I posted. Jingiby moved it to the upper paragraphs. Acording to the letters sent from Serbian consulate to the Serbian Minister of Exterior, the anti-exarchate movement reached 1200 houses, which is a huge portion of Prilep at the time.

Kkapidan (talk) 23:29, 14 October 2025 (UTC)

Rewording may be needed then because I don't think the point is to claim that the Bulgarian Exarchate was not dominant in Prilep and elsewhere in the region, rather pointing out a notable instance of resistance against it in Prilep. --Local hero ^talk 03:24, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

Following the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870, as a result of plebiscites held between 1872 and 1875, the Slavic population in the bishoprics of Skopje and Ohrid voted overwhelmingly in favor of joining the new Bulgarian national Church (Sanjak of Üsküp - 91%, Sanjak of Ohrid - 97%). Also, as far as this sourced table taken from the article Bulgarian millet indicates, over 97% of the citizens in the Prilep region per 1881-82 Ottoman Census, i.e. 43,763 people, were listed as adherents of the Bulgarian Exarchate and the petition to leave the Exarchate was signed by 25 people. I think that in order to adhere to the neutral point of view, the text in the article should be reformulated and balanced. Not to mention that the initiator of these actions, Spas Igumenov, later publicly renounced them. The data for Christian population of the kazas currently falling within the borders of North Macedonia, per the Ottoman General Census of 1881/82 is as follows:Jingiby (talk) 08:23, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

I am open to re-wording, but I think only content about the petition can be salvaged. We should use better sources for it, such as Lučeska's source above. If there really was significant and notable opposition, there would be more coverage and not only a 1982 source to claim it. We should not try to analyse old consul sources ourselves because that would be original research. StephenMacky1 (talk) 09:40, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

Providing secondary sources:

Tome Sazdov - "Марко К. Цепенков" (p. 44: ""Имено, може да се константира дека Прилеп зазеде место меѓу челните во движењата против бугарската верско-политичка пропаганда. Сосема противно од периодот 1867-1869, кога пробугарски ориентираните интелектуалци, на чело со М. Кусев, направија од Прилеп сигурно упориште на бугарштината, сега во 1887 година масовно беше покажан отпор против великобугарскиот притисок. По овој повод, српскиот конзул во Битола, Боди, пишуваше: „Во Прилеп постои силна незадоволничка струја, која брои околу 1200 куќи, чиј главен водач е попот Спасе Игуманов. Тука луѓето се отцепија од Егзархијата. Бидејќи ни Грчката патријаршија не дозволуваше словенско пеење во црквите, сакаа да образуваат автокефална црква. Во барањето на заштита, тие се опираа врз унијатите како европски гарант пред турските власти. Еден параклис на таа црква отвори во Прилеп таа незадоволничка партија, но турската власт го затвори и ги симна кандилата, на доставка од бугарска страна, како божем таа партија да е бунтовничка.“ Драматична е историјата на овој потфат на прилепчани да се здобијат со своја автокефална црква. Предводени од родољубивиот и мошне иницијативен поп Спасе Игуманов, тие се противставија на денационализаторските обиди на егзархиската прилепска Општина; попот С. Игуманов го извести Егзархот во Цариград дека му ја откажува послушноста, прогласувајќи се за самостоен свештеник. Во одговор на тоа Егзархот не само што набрзо го премести овој свештеник од Прилеп, при што попот С. Игуманов беше обвинет дека божем проневерил црквени пари, туку успеа и да му обезбеди затворска ќелија во Битола."

English: "Indeed, it can be stated that Prilep took a leading position in the movements against Bulgarian religious-political propaganda. This was in stark contrast to the period of 1867–1869, when pro-Bulgarian oriented intellectuals, led by M. Kusev, had turned Prilep into a stronghold of Bulgarian influence. Now, in 1887, there was a massive display of resistance against the Greater Bulgarian pressure. On this occasion, the Serbian consul in Bitola, Bodi, wrote: 'In Prilep, there exists a strong dissident current, comprising around 1,200 households, whose main leader is the priest Spase Igumanov. Here, the people broke away from the Exarchate. Since the Greek Patriarchate also did not allow Slavic singing in churches, they sought to establish an autocephalous church. In their request for protection, they relied on the Uniates as a European guarantor before the Turkish authorities. A chapel of that church was opened in Prilep by this dissident group, but the Turkish authorities shut it down and extinguished the lamps, at the urging of the Bulgarian side, claiming that this group was rebellious.' The history of this endeavor by the people of Prilep to obtain their own autocephalous church is dramatic. Led by the patriotic and highly proactive priest Spase Igumanov, they opposed the denationalizing efforts of the Exarchate’s Prilep Municipality. Priest S. Igumanov informed the Exarch in Constantinople that he was withdrawing his obedience, declaring himself an independent priest. In response, the Exarch not only quickly transferred this priest out of Prilep, accusing him of allegedly embezzling church funds, but also managed to secure a prison cell for him in Bitola.")

Драган Ташковски - "Раѓањето на македонската нација" (p. 256-257: "...во многу места во Македонија настанаа противбугарски движења. Особено тоа беше силно во Прилеп, во градот кој бугарските водичи поради настаните од 1867-1869 го сметаа за свој „бастион“. Ова противбугарско движење во Прилеп, на чие чело се наоѓаше поп Спасе Игуманов, за разлика од другите, каде што поединци или групички истапуваа против пробивот на великобугарскиот притисок, ја имаше таа специфичност што беше масовно...

English:"...In many places across Macedonia, anti-Bulgarian movements emerged. This was especially strong in Prilep, a city which Bulgarian leaders, due to the events of 1867–1869, considered their ‘bastion.’ The anti-Bulgarian movement in Prilep, led by the priest Spase Igumanov, differed from others where individuals or small groups opposed the advance of Greater Bulgarian pressure. That movement had the distinct characteristic of being a mass movement.") Kkapidan (talk) 15:46, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

Sazdov was primarily a literary historian, while Taškovski's work should be used cautiously due to its nationalist nature. Anyway, I propose replacing the undue paragraph with the claim attributed to the Serbian consul based on Taškovski's source. The content about Igumenov's petition can be based on Lučeska's source. The rest of the potential content can be based on the sources that me and Jingiby provided. I think that's the best way to achieve NPOV unless someone has a better idea. StephenMacky1 (talk) 19:34, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

A source from 2016:

Rad Srbije na zaštiti srpskih državnih i nacionalnih interesa u Makedoniji od 1885. do 1912. godine (p. 281: "У Прилепу је поред јаке бугарске пропаганде дошло до расцепа у словенског становништва и формирања јаке незадовољне групе, које је бројала око 1200 кућа. Ова група је покушавала да формира слободну аутокефалну цркву..." English: "In Prilep, in addition to strong Bulgarian propaganda, there was a split in the Slavic population and the formation of a strong dissatisfied group, numbering about 1200 households. This group was trying to form a free autocephalous church...") Kkapidan (talk) 21:11, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

It does not matter how many sources you present. They all prove that this claim is based on the consul's source. StephenMacky1 (talk) 21:59, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

According to the statistics of the secretary of the Bulgarian Exarchate, Dimitar Mishev ("La Macédoine et sa Population Chrétienne"), in 1905 the Christian population of Prilep consisted of 17,085 Bulgarian Exarchists, 240 Slavic Patriarchists (Serbomans and Grecomans), 50 Greeks and 420 Vlachs.

Christian ethnoreligious groups as per 1881-82 Ottoman Census in today North Macedonia

Kaza1	Bulgarian Exarchists		Greek Patriarchists (mostly Greek-minded Aromanian, Slavic and Albanian-speakers, incl. so-called Old Serbians)
	Number	%	Number	%
Köprülü / Veles	32,843	98.7	420	1.3
Tikveş	21,319	98.8	260	1.2
Gevgili / Gevgelija	5,784	28.4	14,558	71.6
Toyran / Dojran	5,605	77.0	1,591	22.1
Usturumca/ Strumica	2,974	17.8	13,726	82.2
Üsküp / Skopje	22,497	77.2	6,655	22.8
Karatova / Kratovo	19,618	81.8	4,332	18.1
Kumanova / Kumanovo	29,478	70.1	12,268	29.9
Planka/ Kriva Palanka	18,196	97.9	388	2.1
İştip / Štip	17,575	100	0	-
Kaçana / Kočani	33,120	99.8	83	0.8
Radovişt / Radoviš	7,364	100.0	0	-
Kalkandelen / Tetovo	9,830	66.3	4,990	33.7
Monastir / Bitola	61,494	60.0	41,077	40.0
Ohri / Ohrid	33,306	91.6	3,049	8.4
Pirlepe / Prilep	43,763	97.2	1,248	2.8
Kirçova / Kičevo	20,879	99.7	64	0.3

References