Talk:Philadelphia metropolitan area

Requested move 25 June 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Philadelphia metropolitan area. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 09:07, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

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Delaware Valley → Greater PhiladelphiaGreater Philadelphia – "Greater Philadelphia" is the more common and less confusing term for the Philadelphia metro area. "Delaware Valley" is mostly used only be media sources, and can be confusing to outsiders, as it could also refer to the area surrounding the Delaware River along the PA/NJ border. Additionally, "Delaware Valley" can cause confusion that it refers to an area solely within the state of Delaware. Red0ctober22 (talk) 21:21, 25 June 2025 (UTC)— Relisting. Tenshi! (Talk page) 18:15, 5 July 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 11:15, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

Support - I was wondering when a formal RFC would be created. I know the term “Delaware Valley” well, but I agree, Greater Philadelphia makes more sense. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 23:59, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Oppose, is not more common (for whom?) and is as noted supported, used by media (thus reliable) sources. The Delaware Valley is the area in Philly metro area to Wilmington DE, and much of South(western) NJ. Greater Philadelphia should redirect to Delaware Valley. Life is confusing sometimes, but it's not Wikipedia's job to dumb down because of it.Djflem (talk) 10:34, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

But "Delaware Valley" is also used to refer to the entire area surrounding the Delaware River, which makes it confusing. In fact, in Milford, PA, all the way up in northeastern PA, there is a "Delaware Valley High School", which is way outside the commonly defined borders of Greater Philadelphia. Red0ctober22 (talk) 23:33, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Yes, life is confusing. But it's an encyclopedia's job to explain the contradiction, not to correct it or change reality. And the article does. Same as the term Hudson Valley. Djflem (talk) 05:24, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

WP:PRECISION stipulates that an article title should be as recognizable and precise as possible. "Delaware Valley" can still create confusion as to whether it is talking about the Delaware Valley or the Delaware River Valley. "Greater Philadelphia" is instantly recognizable to people that it is the metro area surrounding Philadelphia. Red0ctober22 (talk) 02:11, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

Fully support the change to "Greater Philadelphia". "Delaware Valley" is a name driven by Philadelphia local TV news (and some private businesses use "Delaware Valley" in their name), but it's not a valid geographical term in a serious reference book or encyclopedia. It's a confusing term as well. Mason.Jones (talk) 21:19, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Where are the references that support the term Greater Philadelphia and define it? So far we have only opinions.Djflem (talk) 04:33, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

References? Citiations? to support claim and definition? (talk) 04:34, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

There are no definitive sources to confirm both "Delaware Valley" or "Greater Philadelphia" as the correct term, different media outlets use different terms. That's why I brought up Wikipedia:PRECISION, because "Greater Philadelphia" is the term that would create the least confusion, and thus should be the tiebreaker. "Delaware Valley" should in reality be a disambiguation page to allow users to choose between the article about the Greater Philadelphia area or the article about the area surrounding the entire path of the Delaware River. Red0ctober22 (talk) 20:29, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

This article actually highlights the confusion that the term "Delaware Valley" creates, while also mentioning the fact that, as @Mason.Jones alluded to previously, the "Delaware Valley" was just an invention by The Philadelphia Inquirer in the 50s, and it is actually seen with a negative connotation by Philadelphians, as its lack of mention of the city can take away from the fact that Philadelphia is meant to be the center of the entire area. Since this page is meant to be about the Philadelphia MSA, it should only make sense that the article title should include the name of that city.

This is not like the Wyoming Valley where both Scranton and Wilkes-Barre are considered "equals" of each other, or the Inland Empire where San Bernardino and Riverside are held in that same way. Philadelphia is the center and the definitive "big city" of this metropolitan area. Camden, Wilmington, or Reading are not considered on the same level of Philadelphia. Red0ctober22 (talk) 20:41, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

@Djflem: The terms "Greater X" and "X metropolitan area" don't need references and citations. These are standard encyclopedic terms that emphasize one very large city that dominates and drives the economy of its urban area. The U.S. Census Bureau uses something similar: "Philadelphia metropolitan statistical area". "Delaware Valley" is an informal invention of the local media. Mason.Jones (talk) 22:10, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

Above is all speculation, opinion, and original research not backed-up by anything, so yes, in this case references and citations should be provided as Wikipedia requires them.Djflem (talk) 05:53, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

Hudson Valley could mean all the entire course of the Hudson River, but it doesn't, it's a smaller region. Lehigh Valley is name used for Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton metro area. So it is not all uncommon. Djflem (talk) 05:58, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

Both the Hudson and Lehigh Valleys are different because, as I noted with the Wyoming Valley, these are all centered around multiple cities within that area that have significant and comparable populations to each other. For example, the Hudson Valley is not going to be called "Greater Albany" because there is also the cities of Troy and Yonkers. The Lehigh Valley is not going to be called "Greater Allentown" because there is also the city of Bethlehem. Meanwhile, the other "major" cities in the Delaware Valley aside from Philadelphia are Camden, NJ and Wilmington, DE, both with roughly 71,000 people. However, those populations are no match to the 1.6 million people in Philadelphia, making it clear there is one definitive city that this area is centered around.

For example, take the Phoenix metropolitan area page. You could argue that it should be named the "Valley of the Sun", as "Phoenix metropolitan area" omits the mention of other significant cities in the area such as Mesa or Glendale. However, because the city of Phoenix has such a dramatically larger population than any of these cities, it is clear which city the area is centered around.

In terms of references, I gave you the article I found here, but if you don't think that is sufficient, I would then ask you to provide us with references or citations to defend the use of Delaware Valley as the official term. I still would argue that there is no way of determining which term is the "official" one, as there are always going to be mixed results from varying media. Instead it should be a decision on which is the best fitting term for the title of a Wikipedia article, and I argue that "Greater Philadelphia" or even "Philadelphia metropolitan area" is the clearest and most understandable term for this. Red0ctober22 (talk) 18:03, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

This describes how Greater Philadelphia was also a marketing device Djflem (talk) 17:45, 8 July 2025 (UTC)

That is true, but it also shows how people in cities like Camden still considered themselves part of the "Philadelphia area", using the example of J. B. Van Sciver Co. Red0ctober22 (talk) 19:01, 8 July 2025 (UTC)

The point being that "Greater Philadelphia" was as much a media generated name as much as "Delaware Valley". If that disqualifies one, would also disqualify the other (more antiquated) "invention"? Djflem (talk) 11:54, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

I agree that it in a sense "disqualifies" both, so in that case it should just come down to what is best for the title of a Wikipedia article by following Wikipedia standards, and I would argue that either "Greater Philadelphia" or "Philadelphia metropolitan area" is the clearest and most distinguishable terminology compared to "Delaware Valley". Red0ctober22 (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2025 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Philadelphia, WikiProject Pennsylvania, WikiProject Delaware, WikiProject Maryland, and WikiProject New Jersey have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 11:14, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

• Move to Philadelphia metropolitan area, or otherwise oppose. Can't see any evidence proving any name above. So, weak support a move to PMA (a more descriptive name WP:NDESC and WP:CONSISTENT name) as there is an apparent lack of a clear WP:COMMONNAME (among Ngrams) unless proven otherwise, with "Delaware Valley" slowly losing use and concerns that it is a bit ambiguous (so not WP:PRECISE) with the entire valley of the Delaware River. Although one could argue the capitalization is enough. While PMA is somewhat related to the official names (in absence of a common one) for the CSA and MSA ("Philadelphia-[city]-[city] CSA/MSA"). Otherwise, oppose purely based on Ngrams, including other proposals like "Greater Philadelphia" per those Ngrams not proving it to be the more common name nor officially used in relation to statistics. (The lead shouldn't be amended until this discussion is closed) DankJae 12:55, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

  If we are going off of consistency, wouldn't Greater Philadelphia be better? For example, there is Greater Boston, Greater Los Angeles, Greater Houston, etc. The differentiation between that and say, Phoenix metropolitan area, is the fact that the page title for Phoenix, Arizona, is not just "Phoenix", as that would be too ambiguous and people may think of the Phoenix bird. Philadelphia, Boston, and Los Angeles, and Houston are all instantly recognizable as major American cities. Red0ctober22 (talk) 17:59, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

  "Greater [place]" is a proper name so to use it here it at least has to be proven to be the WP:COMMONNAME over the current, which there isn't proof for it here. Consistency isn't my main argument, but was following more inline with Category:Metropolitan areas of Pennsylvania rather than it generally (but note NY, MI, CH, NO, DC, BL, SE and KC etc). There is no convention to only use "Greater" nor is it the most used format. "Philadelphia metropolitan area" is at least a more descriptive name that at least aligns with the name used for the statistical area and a neutral name that avoids using debated marketing names that are either not clearly the most commonly used nor ambiguous. But once again, admit that if we are purely following common name, then the current should remain per ngrams, unless additional evidence is provided. DankJae 19:39, 13 July 2025 (UTC)

  That makes sense, ultimately I would agree with any title as long as it includes the word "Philadelphia" in it. The reality is I do not believe there is a true WP:COMMONNAME, and so it should ultimately come down to the judgement of what is the best title for a Wikipedia page, and I would argue Delaware Valley is too confusing/ambiguous to outside viewers. Red0ctober22 (talk) 16:37, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Oppose. This is anecdotal, but Delaware Valley is the typical term used around here, from newscasts to regional teams to infrastructure, etc. I don't know where the idea that "Greater Philadelphia" is more common comes from, I've been all around the area and it's always been "Delaware Valley" for the metro area. Yeah, it can be confusing to outside viewers, but that's what the disambiguation section/page is for. 212.104.215.17 (talk) 00:06, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

As a Delaware Valley resident, I agree it is used more around here, but I am not sure that is a real basis for naming the article, because that could be pushing colloquialism. For example, in Phoenix they call their metro area "The Valley" or the "Valley of the Sun", yet the Wikipedia page is Phoenix metropolitan area, because those prior names would be too ambiguous. As I said earlier on here, I believe the main priority should be to have "Philadelphia" in the title of this article, and as @DankJae said, "Philadelphia metropolitan area" would be a name somewhat-based on official sources and clear enough for outside viewers. Red0ctober22 (talk) 02:00, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

• Not sure it's so cool to change the proposal in the middle of the discussion as done here. Djflem (talk) 12:05, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

  I felt DankJae's argument was stronger, but in the end both terms are pretty similar and have enough of a difference compared to "Delaware Valley". Red0ctober22 (talk) 01:32, 17 July 2025 (UTC)

• Move to Philadelphia metropolitan area per DankJae; the current title is ambiguous and likely to be confusing. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:46, 21 July 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 4 May 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: WITHDRAWN; I will open a new one with a direct target in an aim to seek more engagement. (closed by non-admin page mover) Red0ctober22 (talk) 18:52, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

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Philadelphia metropolitan area → ? – We are approaching about one year now since this page was moved from "Delaware Valley" to "Philadelphia metropolitan area". I do recognize I was the one who spearheaded this change in the first place, but I fear the current name does not completely conform to Wikipedia standards. The basis for the change back then was the fact that "Delaware Valley" could be confused with the entire valley that follows the Delaware River, which extends well beyond the Philadelphia suburbs all the way up to North Jersey and Northeastern Pennsylvania.

Here are some facts from some searching I have done.

• An Ngram comparison shows results dramatically in favor of "Delaware Valley", with "Greater Philadelphia" very far behind, then "Philadelphia metropolitan area" under that by a decent amount.
• While not totally reliable, after doing a basic search of keywords on Newspapers.com, I found ≈98 million matches for Delaware Valley, ≈32 million matches for "Greater Philadelphia", and ≈4 million matches for "Philadelphia metropolitan area"

With that, I ask:

• It is known that "Delaware Valley" was a media invention, but could the argument be made that it is our duty to apply the most commonly-used name based on what reliable media sources choose, no matter what?
• If we do agree that "Delaware Valley" is just too confusing, then I believe there is a still a legitimate argument in favor of "Greater Philadelphia" over "Philadelphia metropolitan area".

Should we:

• A: Revert the title back to "Delaware Valley"
• B: Change the title to "Greater Philadelphia"
• C: Leave as-is with "Philadelphia metropolitan area"
• D: Change to some other name not mentioned here Red0ctober22 (talk) 21:22, 4 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 04:05, 12 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. {{GearsDatapacks|talk|contribs}} 09:08, 19 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. msk 18:21, 26 May 2026 (UTC)

Red0ctober22 (talk) 22:49, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

Discussion about why it was initially opened as RfC. – robertsky (talk) 04:07, 12 May 2026 (UTC)

Any reason for this being an RfC instead of a requested move? ⹃Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 01:43, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

I don't have a specific target page in mind, I'm really just looking for input. If enough argument is present for option C, there won't even be a move at all. Red0ctober22 (talk) 01:47, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

Right, that's not really what RfCs are for, they're mainly used to resolve disputes (and also for stuff that requires wide consensus). I suggest reading through WP:RFC, but for now the fix is really simple; convert it into a move discussion. Make an edit where you replace the RfC template with

{{subst:requested move|?|reason=(The opening statement goes here)}}

Don't worry about it looking at bit messy at first, that can be fixed. It needs to be done like this so the bot that handles requested moves to be able to do its job. ⹃Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 01:59, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

This IS discussing a policy issue to seek to form a consensus, which WP:RfC permits, because, as I said in my second set of bullet points, we have a scenario where WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRECISION are butting heads. Although the move last year went through, it was a particularly weak consensus as you can probably see from above.

If people support a name different from the current one in this, then there will of course be a subsequent move proposal for that name. Red0ctober22 (talk) 02:13, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

Yes, we deal with such conflicts of naming policies on a daily basis at WP:RM; I'm telling you: that is just the place where a question like this can be handled. ⹃Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 02:50, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

Ok, I suppose changing it to an RM will garner more attention to it anyway as well. Red0ctober22 (talk) 21:21, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

Page rename discussions are not a matter for RfC. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:48, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Philadelphia and WikiProject Pennsylvania have been notified of this discussion. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 00:04, 15 May 2026 (UTC)

Weak oppose (so C), in absence of any definitive WP:COMMONAME that is not ambiguous, left with keeping the generic name as per the previous RM. Although if one can prove most individual sources use a name that's specifically about the area and not as much for the river or schools, then that could prove the COMMONNAME, more so than Ngrams which groups everything area, river valley and schools under "Delaware Valley", and its clear "Greater Philadelphia" is much less used to override it. So left with only a descriptive neutral option. DankJae 01:06, 17 May 2026 (UTC)

I mostly agree with that, but I would ask this:

It's true that "Greater Philadelphia" is used significantly less than "Delaware Valley", however, doesn't it warrant some merit that "Greater Philadelphia" is still used significantly more than "Philadelphia metropolitan area"?

Essentially, I guess I'm trying to understand the succession of order we go in here. We have the most common name, but we agree it's too ambiguous. So wouldn't the most logical step then to be to find the next most common name that is clear and unambiguous instead of immediately pivoting to the default generic name? Red0ctober22 (talk) 01:58, 17 May 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 28 May 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Nominator fails to prove that Greater Philadelphia is WP:COMMONNAME. As proven by participants from previous RM discussions of this title, the usage of Greater Philadelphia is quite weak. Despite two relistings of this RM, the move has only been opposed. (non-admin closure) Fortek67 (talk) 21:01, 19 June 2026 (UTC)

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Philadelphia metropolitan area → Greater PhiladelphiaGreater Philadelphia – The above closed discussion did not really get a lot of engagement, so I figured I would narrow it down to the direct target page that I personally would like to see this be moved to, and perhaps this will garner more engagement.

I presented facts/my argument comparing the three names for consideration in the aforementioned previous discussion, and so I will summarize that here.

Essentially, "Delaware Valley" is far and away the most common name, "Greater Philadelphia" trails behind by a wide margin, but it is still used widely based on Ngrams and Newspapers.com hits. Then, in third, trailing "Greater Philadelphia" by a decent margin as well, is "Philadelphia metropolitan area".

At this point, consensus seems to be that "Delaware Valley" is too ambiguous to be suitable. So, I think that should be completely thrown out of any consideration. With that, I argue we should simply revert to the next-most-common name that is clear and understandable enough to suit the title, and that is "Greater Philadelphia", not "Philadelphia metropolitan area". Red0ctober22 (talk) 19:00, 28 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. {{GearsDatapacks|talk|contribs|in solidarity}} 09:58, 5 June 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 14:26, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

While this is a new discussion, it is important to still note @DankJae's opinion from the previous discussion, which was a weak oppose. Red0ctober22 (talk) 19:03, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject New Jersey, WikiProject Delaware, WikiProject United States, and WikiProject Maryland have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 14:31, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Pinging @DankJae, @Jeffrey34555, @Maltazarian, @MSK, @Red0ctober22, @Redrose64, @Robertsky, @Djflem, @Extraordinary Writ, @Hurricanehink mobile, @Mason.Jones and @Pppery from prior discussions. TarnishedPath^talk 14:33, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

• As stated above, ... "Delaware Valley" is far and away the most common name . Common name is Wikipedia policy. It should not have been changed in the first place. If it is indeed confusing in the real world, as some seem to suggest, it is NOT Wikipedia's mission to fix that. Wikipedia should reflect the real world, and present its little reality bubble because some think it's confusing or doesn't have the name Philadelphia in it. The metro area is the Delaware Valley. Period.Djflem (talk) 16:17, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Although I oppose the change to "Greater", believing that this is a name reserved for mega-cities like LA or London, it's obvious that this view isn't shared by regular editors of Greater Boston and Greater Manchester. I can't therefore argue that "Greater Philadelphia" is un-encyclopedic. What I very much oppose is the media-driven and tabloid term "Delaware Valley", lifted directly from Philadelphia local TV news ("Here are some other goings-on in the Delaware Valley") but less often used by the Philadelphia Inquirer except in names of organizations, and generally not used by most Philadelphians in conversation. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:34, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

I think when we talk about "Delaware Valley", what we also need to consider is another part of the five criteria for article titles, which is recognizability. If "Delaware Valley" is largely only used by Philadelphia-based media sources, then how recognizable is "Delaware Valley" to someone in, say, Seattle? Or London? Or Australia? Red0ctober22 (talk) 18:19, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose Delaware Valley A GNews search for this name yields more results for Delaware Valley University and Delaware Valley Hospital, and Delaware Valley Regional High School but relatively few that are referring to Philadelphia metro area. 6abc uses the term a lot, but as Mason.Jones notes it does not seem as common. A GBooks search has more results that refer to the physical river valley region rather than an urban area. Greater Philadelphia seems more widespread among sources, names of organizations, and common usage and I'd prefer that, but the current simple descriptive name is also consistent with many other metro area articles. Reywas92^Talk 17:46, 12 June 2026 (UTC)
• Oppose Delaware Valley The biggest problems with Delaware Valley is that it's ambiguous about how far up the river it goes, makes no mention of Philadelphia (the core city in the region) and means nothing to most people, whether internationally or anywhere in the United States (outside of Philadelphia). Meanwhile, Greater Philadelphia sounds like a tourism slogan. Philadelphia metropolitan area, while imperfect, is far less bad than the other two and is far clearer to readers. Let's stick with this and let's stop trying to win a battle over the name of the article that wastes even more time and accomplishes nothing. Alansohn (talk) 22:10, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

  But there is evidence showing that "Greater Philadelphia" is used significantly more than "Philadelphia metro area". Doesn't that deserve merit? Red0ctober22 (talk) 22:27, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

  Metropolitan statistical area#United States has at leas 13 metros that use "Greater" in the article title and I noticed quite a few others that bold the term in the first sentence. This is used pretty commonly and I don't think it feels like a tourism slogan at all. Either of these names work but I don't feel strongly about which one. — Reywas92^Talk 22:39, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

  Having reviewed the data in detail myself over the past few years, I'm simply not seeing the evidence for Greater Philadelphia. Among the others in the Metropolitan statistical area Top Ten are five with "Metropolitan Area" (New York, Chicago, Washington , Miami and Phoenix), two with "Greater" (Los Angeles and Houston) and two others (Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex and Metro Atlanta). Let Philadelphia metropolitan area stay as is, to make it six out of ten. And let's keep it that way. Alansohn (talk) 03:33, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.