Talk:Pharaoh

A few additions

Made a few additions ;-) But still the list is woefully short of complete. So far I've only put in ones that I can be sure are in chronological order, any others would just be (close) guesswork. --user:pb

Amenhotep

There are 2 entries for Amenhotep IV in the 'pedia: Akhenaton and Akhnaten - User:Olivier

Pick the best name and merge! -- Tarquin

I did an extensive Google search to see what the preferred spelling was, and moved the article to that. Ditto for the disambig pages for Ramesses, Tuthmosis, etc. See the individual talk pages for the rationale for each. Noel 01:18, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Name

The Narmer article says that he succeeded Serket, but Serket is not on this list. Is he "The Scorpion of Egypt"? Serket was the name of a Scorpion goddess. RickK 04:45, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Egyptian Chronology

Whoever wrote the dates for the year and or Pharaohs - you should tell what particular source you are using for your dates, not just that this is "one of many" possible dating schemes. john 05:46 24 May 2003 (UTC)

This page overlaps almost completely with Conventional Egyptian chronology. This one makes more sense as a "keeper", given the name (of the two, it's where I'd look for a full list). Not sure how to resolve the issue. -- Fab 23:46, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have some trouble with the Conventional Egyptian chronology page. In the first place, its dates for the 11th and 12th Dynasties are not the conventional dates at all - they are low dates. Those dynasties "standard" dates have been established for a long time, and are still used in fairly recent books. The page also, oddly, says that it's basing its list of the conventional chronology on David Rohl's Test of Time, which is a widely discredited revisionist work. The problem with the page here, as I see it, is that it provides no sources at all for the dates provided. john 20:47, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I would be willing to use the sources I cited on Conventional Egyptian chronology (The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt and http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/) to redo the page, if others agree. However, I think it is pointless to have two pages which give esentially the same information. So before I start, I'd like to resolve that.

There is definitely still confusion over Egyptian dates. E.g. Reeves' "Valley of the Kings" uses the same dates as Wikipedia (which it says come from Baines' "Atlas of Ancient Egypt"), but Clayton's "Chronology of the Pharaohs" (a recent work) gives Tuthmosis I's reign as 1524-1518 (using a system which the author followed from Mumane's "Penguin Guide to Ancient Egypt"). Until there is rough consensus among Egyptologists, I think all we can do is pick one (so all the various pages are consisten), document which one we picked, and stick with it. Noel 01:18, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Oops! When I said "dates as Wikipedia", I'd been reading the individual pages for various rulers. I see that Tuthmosis I is given on this page as 1525-1518, whereas on his page he's given as 1504-1492. Sigh. We really need to pick one chronology, and use it everywhere. Noel 01:57, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, most definitely. I suppose the question is: ought we to use time-worn dating systems which are familiar, but quite possibly somewhat incorrect, or more recent estimates which have not yet been accepted as a consensus? Some sense of what the most frequently used dates are would be helpful here. john 05:21, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Cleanup

A cleaned up version is in Pharaoh/Temp. Please add any comments there or in its talk page - I intend to move it to the "live" version later this week. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:13, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In the bullet point mentioning Cleopatra there is this: "...and the fact Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans would probably not tolerate a black ruler." Which came as a bit of a suprise to me. Could someone expound on why this would be the case? I've never heard that romans, greeks or especially egyptians of antiquity would treat blacks differently than whites. The wikipedia article on racism also mentions nothing prior to the colonial period on the subject but of course thats no failing of clarity here. -- xiaou

On Chronology and Female Pharaohs

I'd like to suggest that all dates link to a page discussing the major dating schema for Ancient Egypt. That might be the most comprehensive way to deal with the matter.

As to female pharaohs: Such a thing could never exist. Pharaoh was an inherently masculine concept. Hatshepsut was portrayed with a beard for a reason. That there were females who functioned as a Pharaoh is undeniable. I think perhaps the issue should be reworded to reflect this more exacting phraseology. To be something and to function as, or in the capacity of, something are two different things. I may function as a father, but I cannot be one. It is also an inherently masculine concept.

It seems to me that this issue is being viewed through reverse-chauvanistic glasses of our American culture. The Egyptians recognized that the blood was pasted through the female, but if a female could have become Pharaoh, why weren't there a great many more of them? The female's power lay in the royal blood coursing through her veins. The male had to marry a female of royal blood to pass that royal blood to his children. I have no doubt that there is now debate over this issue in our culture where everything is he/she, him/her encumbered, and where everyone is so afraid of offending anyone that they allow our so-called 'modern' views to be fobbed-off onto ancient cultures. We will never know the 'truth' unless we can divest ourselves of our cultural biases - and any Anthropologist worth their salt will tell you that this is impossible.

Perhaps we could represent both viewpoints on the pages which make reference to this issue?