Talk:Messerschmitt Me 262

Tuskegee Victory Over ME 262

This research is wrong. The Black air force group Tuskegee Airmen shot down the first ME 262s ever, and they shot down more jets than any other pilot groups combined. It is part of their fame. There is no mention of this in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2025-31482-64:35, (talk • contribs) 11:06, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

Please provide a published reliable source for this, if it can be found, and we can consider adding it. The Tuskaggee Airmen were certainly involved in combat against Me 262s, and given the odds stacked up against them by the bigotry of the time, deserve all the recognition they can get for their victories. We do however require reliable sources to support such claims (which might be questioned), and I doubt that the Airmen themselves would suggest otherwise. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:18, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

First ground-to-air kill

I have revised the footnote about the first Me262 ground-to-air kill using Routledge’s core “History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, Anti-Aircraft Artillery 1914–55” as the main source. I have kept the War Diary reference for the exact date and location - if this falls foul of synthesis, then happy to remove that primary source, but I believe this is the correct usage of a primary source for “straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.”

Cheers! BBWood1908 (talk) 13:06, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

First, thanks for finding a secondary source. Second, I'm less concerned about synthesis and more concerned about reliability. Per WP:PRIMARY point #2, we can write that the war diaries claim the kill on a particular date, but since September comes before November anyway, perhaps we just omit the date and use only what Routledge says.

Finally, I'm noting that the original claim of a confirmed kill is unsourced; what would you think of just replacing that unsourced claim with this sourced one? That we we don't need an overlarge footnote, just regular text with Wikivoice and attribution. EducatedRedneck (talk) 13:52, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

I am happy to remove the primary source and stick with Routledge if that's preferable, my only thought was that a precise date might be helpful if someone else goes on to find a similarly conflicting source in future. Routledge references the kill as part of a wider paragraph about the Brigade's actions in the Antwerp area, so there isn't a specific date/location for it beyond September.

On the current claim, the Oliver reference at the end of the paragraph supports the kill claim for 26 November. I bought the book and checked, because the 123rd LAA Rgt have it in their diary as a confirmed, shared kill with the RAF Regiment, and I wanted to see if the RAF Regiment history could act as a secondary source - suffice to say, the RAF Reg don't mention the 123rd sharing credit!

Happy to go with what you think is best. I'm currently writing the 106th AA Bde article and it will feature on there as a claim, so I'll match whatever is decided is best for this page. BBWood1908 (talk) 18:42, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for checking the end-of-paragraph citation. That's really good info! In that case we should report both of them. I see what you mean around the date. Perhaps that part, and the War Diaries could be in a footnote. Perhaps rework the first part of the paragraph to be something like:

Accounts conflict on the first confirmed kill of an Me262. One version is that the first kill was when a Me 262A-2a Sturmvogel of III.Gruppe/KG 51 'Edelweiß' based at Rheine-Hopsten Air Base near Osnabrück was the first confirmed ground-to-air kill of a jet combat aircraft. The Me 262 was shot down by a Bofors gun of B.11 Detachment of 2875 Squadron RAF Regiment at the RAF forward airfield of Helmond, near Eindhoven.[Oliver cite] Another version is that the 123rd LAA Rgt scored the first confirmed kill at some point in September 1944.[Routledge cite]

How does that sound? I think you're much more experienced with the topic than I am, so I want to make sure I'm doing it justice. EducatedRedneck (talk) 18:59, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

@EducatedRedneck: Can't seem to reply anymore,so hopefully this works?

Sorry, to clarify, two events at play here:

• 71st LAA Rgt claims first kill September 1944, confirmed in Routledge and war diary
• 123rd LAA Rgt claimed a share of the kill cited for the RAF Regiment by Oliver on 26 November, but I have no secondary source for this, only their war diary.

Maybe something like the below as the close? Just a couple of tweaks, mostly so I can link to the 106th BDE. I can't see another reference to an LAA Rgt on the page, so it'll have to be the full text first time:

"Another version is that the 71st Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, of the 106th Anti-Aircraft Brigade, scored the first confirmed kill in September 1944 while operating outside Antwerp.[Routledge cite]"

BBWood1908 (talk) 19:41, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

Well, that'll show me for editing while distracted. Thanks for the facepalm-worthy correction, and for being so kind about it!

I might make one brief formatting tweak, just so we don't have the reference numbered superscript next to the different footnote text. It might look like,

{{tq|Accounts conflict on the first confirmed kill of an Me262. One version is that the first kill was when a Me 262A-2a Sturmvogel of III.Gruppe/KG 51 'Edelweiß' based at Rheine-Hopsten Air Base near Osnabrück was the first confirmed ground-to-air kill of a jet combat aircraft. The Me 262 was shot down by a Bofors gun of B.11 Detachment of 2875 Squadron RAF Regiment at the RAF forward airfield of Helmond, near Eindhoven.[Oliver cite] Another version is that the 71st Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, of the 106th Anti-Aircraft Brigade, scored the first confirmed kill in September 1944 while operating outside Antwerp.[Routledge cite]

Does that look better? EducatedRedneck (talk) 20:14, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

No worries, some of the nonsense I've written and fixed... That version works for me!

I note as well in the previous paragraph it says "After Thierfelder's death, Major Walter Nowotny was assigned as commander on 25 September 1944, and the unit was redesignated Kommando Nowotny. Though essentially a trials and development unit, it mounted the world's first jet fighter operations, beginning on 3 October 1944." Beyond this one being shot down on 17 September, I have various primary references and also Routledge showing Me262s operating in ground attack roles during Market Garden, including attacking the Nijmegen bridges on 26th September. I don't have the source that's cited for the claim in the article, but I wonder if it actually means "world's first jet fighter air-to-air combat operations"?

At the moment the section will read that operations commenced in October, but one was shot down in September.... BBWood1908 (talk) 20:45, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

Another good point. I don't have that source, either. Maybe I'll see if I can request it from my library. For now, I'll add a {{clarify}} tag to remind editors that it needs some attention. As for the rest, I'll go ahead and put that in the article now! If you would be willing to look it over once I've finished and make sure I didn't make any boneheaded mistakes, I'd be much obliged. Thanks again for finding sources and workshopping this; you've really improved the article! EducatedRedneck (talk) 21:42, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

Cheers, looks good - I've just tweaked slightly to make it clearer that Helmond was being attacked again as we'd broken up that passage, but looks good.

Thanks for your help on it! The British Anti-Aircraft Brigades and their regiments get very little recognition in secondary sources, so I'm trying to insert them into the historical record where I can without falling foul of Wikipedia's NOR rules. Very thankful for Routledge's book! BBWood1908 (talk) 22:27, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

References

Pop culture appearance

In the Blue Oyster Cult song "ME 262" from 1974 album "Secret Treaties". (Would add to article, not sure if it would just be considered fluff, though.) Wikinetman (talk) 10:25, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

Pop culture appearances are listed at Aircraft in fiction with a citation from a reliable source. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 10:35, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

Also note that the source must discuss the cultural of the aircraft in some depth, per MOS:POPCULT. If you have such a source, then by all means, Aircraft in fiction is the right place! EducatedRedneck (talk) 11:59, 10 February 2026 (UTC)