Talk:List of animals awarded human credentials/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Diplomas versus membership certificates

Although this article is entitled "List of animals with fraudulent diplomas", a good number of the examples on this list do not involve diplomas (which require coursework, exams, papers, etc.), but instead certificates of memberships (which often involve only sending in an application and a payment). The two really aren't comparable. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 15:08, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Good point, Piledhigheranddeeper; the second example has to do with registration and accreditation, not a diploma. What might be a better title to encompass all of these? List of animals with fraudulent credentials? Schazjmd (talk) 17:49, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

That's a better one. Another might be ".. animals with fraudulent credentials and accolades", but I (for one) think the titles of these articles should not be very long. So perhaps "credentials" in the title, with the intro explaining that these are non-humans with phony diplomas, credentials, certificates, memberships, accolades, or other honors (or maybe "indicia of achievement", as honors can be real, if intended as jokes, etc.). --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 18:14, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good. The article doesn't seem to be too active but there might still be some watchers so I'll start a move discussion to see if anyone objects. Schazjmd (talk) 18:35, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

"despite not achieving academic success"

Surely it's a silly phrasing! Animals obviously can't achieve academic success and this implies that some animals can achieve academic success, and it just so happens the ones featured in this article haven't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:818:DA34:B400:89DB:768E:6267:4A5D (talk) 17:38, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, I've removed that and also the bit about not attending classes. Schazjmd (talk) 17:46, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 22 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move to List of animals awarded human credentials - jc37 03:15, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

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List of animals with fraudulent diplomas → List of animals with fraudulent credentials edited to add for closer: discussion suggested that a better target name is "List of animals awarded human credentials" (end added note)– As the list has developed, its scope has expanded beyond "diplomas" to include "things like diplomas", such as registration, memberships, accreditation, certificates, and so on. "Credentials", being less specific than "diploma", seems appropriate as an umbrella term for the entries. Schazjmd (talk) 18:39, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

• Consider List of animals with fake credentials, List of animals with inappropriate credentials, List of animals with undeserved credentials, or similar. Fraud is a crime, and most of these improper credentials were obtained as pranks or as demonstrations of a lack of due diligence by an awarding institution rather than what the fraud article calls an effort "to secure unfair or unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right". — BarrelProof (talk) 18:50, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

• Good point. How about List of animals with false credentials? Schazjmd (talk) 19:02, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

• On the other hand, after reading the article, it appears that although the animals' owners were not committing fraud, the described incidents seem to have involved institutions that issued degrees that were outright fraudulent (or at least completely unverified). There could hypothetically be other cases that were less clear, such as dogs that became Kentucky Colonels. — BarrelProof (talk) 19:38, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
• I agree a change is appropriate and the "fraudulent" is the wrong adjective for a lot of the qualifications discussed here: they're useless, bogus or fake, but not necessarily committing the crime of fraud. I struggle for an accurate title though. "Qualifications" strikes me as a better word then "credentials" or "accreditation" etc., but maybe that's a British English thing? MartinPoulter (talk) 19:44, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

• The problem with "false credentials" (or similar) is that the term includes probably the most important false or fraudulent credential for esp. dogs, horses, and cat: breeding papers / certifications / kennel club registries. Considering the minor media coverage this article has received in a humorous vein, perhaps List of animals with humorous false credentials (or similar)?
  • The credentials aren't created as a joke, though. "Humorous" is further from the truth than "fraudulent" is. MartinPoulter (talk) 09:20, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
• Another common "false credential" thing I came across searching is Service animal. Argh, this is aggravating...what about List of animals awarded human credentials? Are there valid instances that would get caught by that? Schazjmd (talk) 13:56, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
  • That seems like a good suggestion. — BarrelProof (talk) 02:36, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
    • However, that would require changing the article to include the "dogtorate" mentioned in the lead section (but specifically excluded from the article). Is that the intention of the rename? That's fine if the rename intends on slightly changing the inclusion/exclusion criteria, but if not, "List of animals awarded human credentials" is probably not accurate. Agreed, argh, this is aggravating. sbb (talk) 03:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
      • A 'dogtorate' is not a human credential, so it would continue to be excluded from a List of animals awarded human credentials. — BarrelProof (talk) 17:58, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

        True, but a 'dogtorate' isn't really a thing anyways. It's clearly a pun on "doctorate", which is a human credential. The spirit of the award is that it's at least like a human credential. On the balance, if the article's name is changed to "List of animals awarded human credentials", the 'dogtorate' should be included because of the intention of the name of the award. sbb (talk) 02:20, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

        I think the dogtorate is handled well already. It is mentioned, but not discussed in the article, but it is not listed as one of the cases of improper granting of human credentials to animals. The article is not primarily about cases where the granting institution is aware that it is granting an award to an animal. Anyhow, this is bordering on becoming a discussion of article content rather than the article title. — BarrelProof (talk) 19:06, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

        I agree with BarrelProof that the intro covers dogtorate nicely. And the more I think on it, the more it seems like awarded human credentials gets to the real point of the list. Schazjmd (talk) 19:25, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

        I also support "List of animals awarded human credentials", which gets across that these awards are dodgy but not necessarily fraudulent, and that the awarding institutions didn't realise they were making the award to an animal. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:03, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I think there's general agreement on List of animals awarded human credentials and discussion has tapered off, so I'm going to request a formal closure at WP:ANC. Schazjmd (talk) 00:34, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Henrietta

Membership certificate awarded to science writer Ben Goldacre's dead cat Hettie, by the American Association of Nutritional Consultants

I suggest that we remove the case of "Henrietta". In that case, all that was obtained was membership in a professional society, which should not be considered as any sort of certification or diploma.

Henrietta (nutrition society membership)

Dr. Ben Goldacre, a UK-based physician and science journalist, wrote in 2004 that his cat Henrietta had obtained a membership in a professional society called the American Association of Nutritional Consultants; Goldacre had been investigating the qualifications claimed by Gillian McKeith, a prominent television nutritionist who had obtained non-accredited PhD and Masters degrees via correspondence courses. Goldacre said, "it’s a particular honour since dear, sweet, little Hettie died about a year ago."

References

— BarrelProof (talk) 20:35, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Agree. Schazjmd (talk) 20:38, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Readers are also invited to participate in the article deletion proposal that I have opened at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American Association of Nutritional Consultants. — BarrelProof (talk) 01:19, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Certification = "the action or process of providing someone or something with an official document attesting to a status or level of achievement" or "an official document attesting to a status or level of achievement". Clearly this is an example of a certification, but not a diploma. If the article is being retitled (see discussion above), then this entry should stay. MartinPoulter (talk) 09:22, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion, it is not a certification. It is a (membership) certificate, but not a certification. It doesn't certify anything more than the fact that someone is a member of an organization. It doesn't assert that being a member of the organization requires having any accredited qualifications. There are many organizations that basically have no verified requirements for membership other than the payment of dues. — BarrelProof (talk) 14:53, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I think the same issue applies to "Sassafras Herbert", which is also about a certificate obtained from a predecessor of the same organization (the American Association of Nutritional Consultants). Although a brief piece in Time refers to Herbert's certificate as a diploma, it should be clear by reading the content of the article and the Quackwatch source that it was merely a certificate of membership, only entitling the member to "a listing in the Official Directory of Nutrition and Dietary Consultants and special rates for malpractice insurance." Quackwatch says only that Herbert "became a professional member". I think it is the same as other cases of animal membership in the AANC (several of which are listed in the article about the organization). — BarrelProof (talk) 20:48, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Can we restore Henrietta's section (membership of AANC)?

As noted in the discussion^ about renaming the page "As the list has developed, its scope has expanded beyond "diplomas" to include "things like diplomas", such as registration, memberships, accreditation, certificates, and so on". Henrietta's membership-not-diploma was removed but the List was renamed and its current name would seem to cover membership 'accreditation'. Are there any objections to me re-adding it? (^I'm cross with myself for missing that, I liked the word fraudulent and it did the work of pointing out that the things applied for were largely nonsense while acknowledging the sneakiness used in acquiring them (by the owners too)). JoBrodie (talk) 08:55, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree that it should be re-added. MartinPoulter (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Membership in a professional society is not a credential. It is not like a diploma. It is simply something somene gets when they fill out a form and pay dues. In most cases, membership is not a certification of any kind. Anyone thinking otherwise is simply misunderstanding what it is. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:50, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Widening the scope

Stumbling on this article made me think of the Roman emperor who (alledgedly) made his horse a senator. A quick google search revealed there's already a WP-article about the horse. (see Incitatus) I believe this article should be expanded to include (historical) cases where animals have been put in positions clearly meant for humans. Dutchy45 (talk) 04:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Why are accredited institutions omitted from this list?

This article focuses on animals who received a diploma from schools that aren't accredited or are otherwise seen as diploma mills. Despite the new-ish title of this article implying that this list encompasses all noteworthy animals who have received human credentials from both (for lack of better terms) legitimate and illegitimate sources, it only focuses on the latter and says the former is not in scope. But why? Do we have a list of animals receiving honorary/mock degrees from accredited institutions on Wikipedia? And if so, why can't we merge them? MooseMike (talk) 17:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Heavily vandalized

This article has clearly been vandalized at several points, with many sections having absurd inserts. A. Rosenberg (talk) 23:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

It's been pretty well cleaned up over the years, and all of the present entries appear to be reliably sourced. Are there any specific sections you believe are not reliably sourced? Schazjmd (talk) 23:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)