Talk:Kermanshah

Etymology

Why is the theory of Mohammad Mokri deleted? It is one of the more plausible thories? The theory of a connection between Kurmanji and Kirmashan is not convincong at all. This due to that the dialect spoken in kirmashan is a mix of Gurani/Kelhuri and Kurmanji. Kurmanji is also a very recent phenomenon in Kirmashan and in southern Kurdistan as a whole. This makes the theory ridiculous as an ancient name could hardly be derived from a recent happening. The theory that the name is derived from Kerman + Shah is also not very plausible as the native name is Kirmashan and never Kirmanshah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.225.3.240 (talk) 16:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

---

After I explained in detail where the name "Kirmanshah" comes from and providing helpful evidence for the future scholars of Kurdish matters under a new article "Kirmanshah", some of you deleted it in favor of these erroneous folk etymologies you repeat in here, complete with the pseudo-French spelling of the city's name: Kermanshah. Socrates was correct: the more ignorant we are, the more certain we feel. Well then, stay in your ignorance. As the old adage goes: "One cannot force knowledge on the unwilling." MI —Preceding unsigned comment added by Izady (talk • contribs) 05:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Iranchamber is not a WP:RS

Iranchamber.com doesn't appear to be a reliable source. --Kurdo777 (talk) 02:56, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Kurdish city

A city of near 1.000.000 citizens and is missed that is a kurd city (in fact reality is modified saying that is a persian city where is speak the persian language and others minority languages, but kurd not enclosed). This seems to be created by a persian chauvinist. Please give justice to kurds.--83.52.18.98 (talk) 08:38, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

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Possible copyright problem

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Bazaars

This section was totally unclear. It seems to indicate two bazaars, but the text about the second bazaar indicates that it has the same naming history as the first bazaar (...so are they the same bazaar?). It is also totally uncited and mostly a list of things you can buy (some of them not translated into English). Anyway, if anyone wants to fix it up and stick it back in, here it is. Einsof (talk) 00:17, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

 

• Yahoudi-ha Bazar(Jewish Bazar) or (Islami Bazar) - It is one of the oldest shopping centers in Iran from Qajar period(1785–present) in which you can find traditional clothes, the Kurdish traditional cloth, miscellaneous spice, Giweh, hand made metal knife, hand made leather, and some blacksmith stores. Also, there are stores selling distilled water from medical plants and flowers.
• The Kurds Bazar or (Tarikeh Bazar) - In this shopping center all kinds of jewelry and some special cookies like Nan Berenji Kaak and Naan Khormaei which are the famous souvenirs of Kermanshah are sold. This Bazar was called Jewish Bazar but after Islamic revolution government changed its name to Islamic Bazar.

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Sister cities

This part is unreferenced. 5.62.195.125 (talk) 19:26, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Kurdish ahead of Persian in the lede and infobox

@Einsof: Re: Kurdish is not an official language in Iran and Kermanshah. Only Persian holds this status. While a majority of the native population in Kermanshah is able to speak Kurdish, I fail to see why it should take precedence over Persian in the lead and infobox when it lacks official recognition. Yet you restored Kurdish ahead of Persian in both the lede and infobox. Furthermore, another point you overlooked in your revert is that the Kurdish transliteration is already included in the explanatory footnote ("efn") in the lead of the article. Its additional inclusion in the lead and infobox is IMO therefore redundant and unnecessary. To my knowledge, there are no other settlement infoboxes on Wikipedia from other countries that include more than one language in the native_name parameter. If there are exceptions, I have yet to come across any.

That said, I am not necessarily opposed to removing the 'efn' note altogether, as there are nowdays only two languages of "major" importance in relation to Kermanshah. As for the etymological root of the word 'Kermanshah,' I intended to make a null edit (which I forgot to) since that part is irrelevant to my rationale. However, you chose to respond to that aspect instead of addressing the more evident points. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:23, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't care about the ordering; I care that it was removed. Examples of infoboxes with multiple languages in the native_name parameter are Lhasa, Naples, Brussels, Nicosia, and Jerusalem. I suggest that both languages should appear parenthetically in the first sentence (as is done for Naples), or should appear in a footnote (as is done for Jerusalem), but neither language should be removed and both languages should be treated equally. Einsof (talk) 17:05, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Its just alphabetically ordered. Semsûrî (talk) 18:07, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Need for permanent protection for this article

There are now four highly prestigious sources cited in the article regarding the language of Kermanshah. These are reliable references, published in reputable linguistic journals, leaving no doubt about their legitimacy.

However, the article continues to face repeated damaging edits targeting the language section. Is it possible for someone to protect this page permanently? Apsa 54 (talk) 16:45, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

@Zemen: Please discuss any further edits about the language here. As I mentionned in your talk page, I opened a discussion here for the purpose of reaching a consensus, so until that time, we should continue with the statement that has been confirmed by at least highly prestigious sources:

1. Azizi, Mina; Saberi, Kourosh; Moradkhani, Shahab (20 March 2024). "Studying Speakers' Attitudes towards Kurdish, Kermanshahi Persian, and Standard Persian in Kermanshah Using Matched Guise Technique". Research in Western Iranian Languages and Dialects. 12 (1): 55–71. doi:10.22126/jlw.2023.8847.1688. ISSN 2345-2579.
2. Jalilian Tabar, Farahnaz (August 2016). "The Study of Kurdish & Persian Languages Use in Kermanshah". Theory and Practice in Language Studies. 6 (8): 1652–1658. doi:10.17507/tpls.0608.19. ISSN 1799-2591 – via ResearchGate.
3. Zarei, Ghodrat; Dabirmghaddam, Mohammad (20 April 2024). "The Southern Kurdish (Kermashani Dialect) Status Use in Kermanshah: Language Maintenance or Shift?". Persian Language and Iranian Dialects. 9 (1). doi:10.22124/plid.2025.27593.1682. ISSN 2476-6585.
4. رنجبر, ‌کتایون (1 October 1386). "دوزبانگی در میان دانش آموزان ساکن شهرهای کرمانشاه و پاوه". مجموعه مقالات دانشگاه علامه طباطبایی (in Persian). 220: 785–798.

In the Jalilian Tabar (2016) source under the DISCUSSION section and the subheading called: "The effect of context on Language Use" it clearly states that: "The results show the Persian dominance on Kurdish in all six social contexts."

So it is self-explanatory that when a language is dominant in all six social contexts of “family, friendship, neighborhood, business, education, and office” it is the dominant language of that city. Apsa 54 (talk) 20:43, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

You yourself deleted the sources you claimed supported your edits; I had already used that same source (the one you brought here as evidence about the language) to support a balanced view of both Kurdish and Persian dominance, but you removed it. and I already responded to you here.  Zemen  (talk) 21:48, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

All of these sources are added by me, and I did not delete any of them. Apsa 54 (talk) 21:53, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

But you already removed the Azizi, Mina; Saberi, Kourosh; Moradkhani, Shahab (2024) study source that I added several months ago. This is clear in the edit history, you can freely check it yourself.  Zemen  (talk) 22:18, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

I am sorry, what? YOU added these resources?!!!!

And I am removing them?? If I removed them, why they are still referring to my statement?

Some hours ago you were claiming my sources are not available online in here!

And now you are claiming that you added those sources?

At least I'm glad that you trying to claim my sources, which mainly proves my point in dominance of Persian in the city. Apsa 54 (talk) 22:29, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

I said that two of the sources you mentioned can't be verified online, not that all your sources are unavailable. Yes, on July 8, 2025, I added the Azizi Mina study to the article to support the idea that both Kurdish and Persian are dominant languages in the city. So, based on your own source, it is clear that both languages have dominance in the city. What exactly is the problem with that?  Zemen  (talk) 22:37, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

We have only one Language dominance in any area so having two dominant languages are not correct.

I agree that most people in Kermanshah know both but from the language point of view, Persian is the dominant language in Kermanshah, while people also speak South Kurdish. Apsa 54 (talk) 22:42, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

About the Jalilian Tabar (2016) source, the study also mentions that there's a statistically significant difference between age groups and their language use. It states that younger people under 20 tend to use Persian more, while older groups still mainly speak Kurdish. So the situation is more nuanced than just saying "persian dominates Kurdish".

Besides, even if you cite other sources saying persian is the main language in Kermanshah city, that doesn't mean my sourced content should be removed. I've used valid sources too, just like you. Removing them doesn't help build consensus. I had already used the very same source you're now citing as evidence.  Zemen  (talk) 22:25, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

If the problem is about removing the sources, you can simply add them to the parts that says: "but the people also speak South Kurdish."

If that is the case, we can have a consensus. Apsa 54 (talk) 22:33, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

If you want to add Kurdish as "also spoken" there, then why don’t you move Persian to that same part too? This is turning into a very biased language discussion. I think it's better if an admin steps in to resolve this.  Zemen  (talk) 22:42, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

That's why we need to use linguistic sources to decide which language is dominant in a multi-lingual areas for Language dominance. Apsa 54 (talk) 22:46, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

What should be done when two reliable sources say two different things? This is not something unique to Kermanshah, it’s the situation in almost every city in Iranian Kurdistan. If Persian is used in official and public spaces, does that automatically mean the city should be labeled as Persian-speaking? The reality is, people everywhere use the state's official language, especially in education and administration. So we're left with two fair options:

• Remove the "dominant language" label altogether, or
• Present both Kurdish and Persian as dominant in their respective social and functional domains.

 Zemen  (talk) 22:52, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Also, some cities have more than one dominant language. For example, in Brussels, both French and Dutch are dominant. So, saying only one language can be dominant isn't always correct.  Zemen  (talk) 23:00, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

That's official language. Apsa 54 (talk) 23:15, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

There is a difference between official language and dominant language. In Kermanshah, even in family and neighborhood, people tend to speak more Persian based on Jalilian Tabar (2016). And as I told you, there can only be one dominant language. Apsa 54 (talk) 23:21, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

I think it would be make the discussion easier if you two could relevant cite quote(s) (and its page(s)) from the four sources (and any other source that you want to include for that matter). I haven't fully looked into this but it seems to be a bit more nuanced than simply what is the "dominant" language. Also, IranAtlas says that "detailed language distribution research" has not been done yet on Kermanshahi Kurdish and Kermanshahi Persian. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:16, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. That's a good idea.

These are the four sources that I added which support the Persian language as the dominant language in Kermanshah:

Link, Zarei 2024: "The results revealed that, in that order, Standard Persian, Kurdish, and Kermanshahi Persian had the highest to lowest positive attitudes."

Link, (in Persian) رنجبر, ‌کتایون:

"زبان غالب در حوزه خانواده در میان دانش‌آموزان دبیرستانی در کرمانشاه زبان فارسی است. در کرمانشاه 82/2 درصد افراد از زبان فارسی استفاده می‌کنند ،بنابراین زبان غالب در میان دانش‌آموزان کرمانشاهی در حوزه خانواده زبان فارسی است، اما در پاوه زبان کردی(94/9 درصد)زبان غالب است. "

Translation: "The dominant language in the family domain among high school students in Kermanshah is Persian. In Kermanshah, 82.2 percent of people use Persian, therefore the dominant language among Kermanshah students in the family domain is Persian, but in Paveh, Kurdish (94.9 percent) is the dominant language."

Link, Jalilian Tabar (2016): "The results show the Persian dominance on Kurdish in all six social contexts."

Link, Azizi 2024: "This study is going to examine whether the speakers are maintaining their native language or shifting", and "the findings signify an accelerating language shift in Kermanshah (from Kurdish towards Persian)." Apsa 54 (talk) 23:50, 5 August 2025 (UTC)

Since the language section needs to be updated, here are some sources that show a more accurate picture of language use in Kermanshah:

• Language Transmission and Maintenance Among Southern Kurdish Families (University of Jyväskylä, 2022): Many parents showed more interest in using Kurdish with their children.
• About Kermanshah – Kermanshah University: Both Persian and Kurdish are spoken equally in Kermanshah.
• The Kurdish Language in Kermanshah: Identity through Language Attitudes – The average language attitude scores were 2.741 for Standard Persian, 2.613 for Kurdish, and 2.484 for Kermanshahi Persian, respectively. Women favored Standard Persian over men, whereas men favored Kurdish over Standard Persian. This shows that the difference in attitudes between using both languages is very small.
• Kermāšāni: The Kurdish Dialect of Kermanshah – Habib Borjian (2024): Le şare Kirmaşan û hewmekanîda, Kirmaşanî ew ndakekî Kurdî Başûrî ye, ke zor kem çawerwanî zanstî geîştûwe which means In the city of Kermanshah and surrounding areas, Kermashani is a dialect of Southern Kurdish and is the most dominant. However, scientific research has not fully proven this.
• The Persian Metaphor: Identity, Language, and Thought – Shuan Osman Karim, Saloumeh Gholami

Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG (2014): Persian in the city is described as "mixed with Kurdish expressions", suggesting code-switching and Kurdish influence. (p. 135)

• Kurdish Identity and Language in Contemporary Iran – Richard Frye (1995): "The real language of the city of Kermanshah is Kurdish... people consider it a sign of education to mix in Persian words". (p. 352)
• Ethnic Groups and the State in Iran – Shahin Gerami (2019): The Kurdish language is more dominantly spoken in Kermanshah and Ilam. (p. 81)

Based on these sources, it’s clear that both Kurdish and Persian are widely used. It would be inaccurate to claim ONLY ONE is dominant, especially when Standard Persian is being replaced by Kermanshahi Persian. Plus, I agree with that idea that we should not judge the situation of the language of the city by some recent sources alone.  Zemen  (talk) 18:33, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

Almost all of these statements are not appeared in these sources or at least are not available online.

The last one is not at all saying that Kurdish is dominant in Kermanshah. It is talking about the places you can find kurds in Iran.

The link that you provided to Ramin Jahanbegloo is incorrect and for a different book.

Also, in the first article that you provided, it clearly says in page 19 that: "More specifically, despite the parents’ great attachment to the maintenance and transmission of Kurdish, they assigned a high priority to Persian and heavily relied on it while speaking to their children."

Which exactly proves the point of dominance of Persian in the city and families. Apsa 54 (talk) 18:57, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

You are right, I mistakenly cited Ramin Jahanbegloo for the Gorani in its Historical and Linguistic Context book, the actual authors of that book are Shuan Osman Karim, Saloumeh Gholami, and it was published by Walter de Gruyter

About your Azizi (2024), it is also incorrect. The actual authors of the study are Ghodrat Zarei and Mohammad Dabirmoghaddam. The study clearly states on page 19:

The results indicated that 60/68 percent of the participants have acquired Kurdish as their first language. that means a lot.

As for the last source, if you read it closely, it does not merely mention the location of Kurds, but clearly discusses the dominance of the Kurdish language in those Kurdish-majority cities.

Lastly, since I have provided accurate sources with working links, could you please specify, one by one, which statements you believe are not supported by the sources, instead of saying Almost all of these statements are not appeared in these sources or at least are not available online? That way, we can have a clearer and more constructive discussion.  Zemen  (talk) 19:32, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

Both of your quotes are problematic;

First with Apsa 54:

"The results revealed that, in that order, Standard Persian, Kurdish, and Kermanshahi Persian had the highest to lowest positive attitudes."

How does this mean that Persian is the dominant language? This sounds more like how the languages are viewed. And what was analysed? Lacking context.

Translation: "The dominant language in the family domain among high school students in Kermanshah is Persian. In Kermanshah, 82.2 percent of people use Persian, therefore the dominant language among Kermanshah students in the family domain is Persian, but in Paveh, Kurdish (94.9 percent) is the dominant language."

This seems very specific. Sure Persian may be dominant in that regard, but doesn't prove that it is the case as a whole.

"The results show the Persian dominance on Kurdish in all six social contexts."

What social contexts? What is this about?

"This study is going to examine whether the speakers are maintaining their native language or shifting", and "the findings signify an accelerating language shift in Kermanshah (from Kurdish towards Persian)."

Ok, Persian is starting to get significant favour over Kurdish (that is the case everywhere in Iran according to IranAtlas, still, there's long to go for the language to actually gain dominance according to their publications), doesn't mean that Persian has become the dominant language yet.

Zemen:

Many parents showed more interest in using Kurdish with their children.

So what? And what is the context here?

Kermanshah University: Both Persian and Kurdish are spoken equally in Kermanshah.

This is not even a published paper or anything, obviously not WP:RS. I recall having asked to you be mindful of WP:SCHOLARSHIP a few times now.

The average language attitude scores were 2.741 for Standard Persian, 2.613 for Kurdish, and 2.484 for Kermanshahi Persian, respectively. Women favored Standard Persian over men, whereas men favored Kurdish over Standard Persian. This shows that the difference in attitudes between using both languages is very small.

Same source as Apsa54 (which he called for Zarei 2024, but it's Azizi 2024), in which I said; "This sounds more like how the languages are viewed." Unless there is context missing here?

Habib Borjian (2024): Le şare Kirmaşan û hewmekanîda, Kirmaşanî ew ndakekî Kurdî Başûrî ye, ke zor kem çawerwanî zanstî geîştûwe which means In the city of Kermanshah and surrounding areas, Kermashani is a dialect of Southern Kurdish and is the most dominant. However, scientific research has not fully proven this.

Seriously...? Translation programs don't support this and Borjan writes the English translation right after at the start of the paper, which says something else; "Spoken in the city of Kermanshah and environs in western Iran, Kermāšāni is a variety of Southern Kurdish, which has received far less scholarly attention than Central Kurdish (Sorani) or Northern Kurdish (Kurmanji)."

The Persian Metaphor: Identity, Language, and Thought – Shuan Osman Karim, Saloumeh Gholami Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG (2014): Persian in the city is described as "mixed with Kurdish expressions", suggesting code-switching and Kurdish influence. (p. 135)

Interesting, but doesn't make us any more clever on the subject.

Kurdish Identity and Language in Contemporary Iran – Richard Frye (1995): "The real language of the city of Kermanshah is Kurdish... people consider it a sign of education to mix in Persian words". (p. 352)

Frye is a good source, but it was made 30 years ago. Pretty relevant when it comes to the demographic makeup/languages used in a place, especially one that is changing quite fast.

Ethnic Groups and the State in Iran – Shahin Gerami (2019): The Kurdish language is more dominantly spoken in Kermanshah and Ilam. (p. 81)

You omitted the part where it said provinces at the end, and by "more dominantly", it means compared to the Western Azerbaijan province. Full quote; "Kurdish language-a minority language spoken to a large extent in western Iran including more dominantly in Kermanshah, Kurdistan and Ilam provinces and to a smaller scale in western Azerbaijan especially its southern region.". HistoryofIran (talk) 20:34, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment: The six social contexts of are: “family, friendship, neighborhood, business, education, and office”. Apsa 54 (talk) 22:16, 6 August 2025 (UTC)

I'm not claiming Kurdish alone dominates Kermanshah today. Rather, the sources suggest a complex sociolinguistic situation where Kurdish remains deeply rooted, even as Persian grows in formal and institutional domains. The language section should reflect that nuance, not present a one-sided conclusion.  Zemen  (talk) 11:20, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

The six social contexts of are: “family, friendship, neighborhood, business, education, and office”.

That could be mentioned in the article, but if it doesn't say that Persian is the dominant language or anything similar, then I wouldn't mention the latter. I don't think this topic (the languages in the Kermanshah city) can be condensed to only a few sentences, it seems to be much more complicated than that based on all the citations here. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:49, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Since the discussion has been quiet for days, please help put a conclusion on this topic.  Zemen  (talk) 13:00, 10 August 2025 (UTC)

"Dominant" shouldn't be mentioned in the section, at least with the current sources listed here. It should be mentioned that Kurdish and Persian is spoken there, and if someone wants to, they're more than welcome to expand on the details with the info from the sources listed here or elsewhere. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:23, 10 August 2025 (UTC)

@Apsa 54: @Zemen: Your thoughts? HistoryofIran (talk) 20:06, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. as I said It would be inaccurate to claim ONLY ONE is dominant and I agree with that idea that we should not judge the situation of the language of the city by some recent sources alone.  Zemen  (talk) 20:23, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

I think that, linguistically, based on recent reports, Persian is now more dominant. However, I acknowledge the deep roots of Kurdish in the city, as it was the dominant language until the rise of new media. Another important point is that there is no clear boundary between South Kurdish and Persian, as Kermanshahi Persian is actually a blend of the two. Moreover, both languages belong to the same family, as they are both Iranian languages. (For example, last week I watched an interview of Hootan Shakiba with AVA Media about Tasian series, and I was able to understand almost 80% of their conversation in Sorani with only knowing Persian, which shows the closeness between the two languages.)

Final: I think we can say, “People in Kermanshah speak Persian and South Kurdish.” to acknowledge both the recent influence of Persian in the city and the historical roots of Kurdish. Apsa 54 (talk) 20:31, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

Irrelevant claim. For the claim, I have already watched Tasian, apart from a few words with Arabic and Indo-European roots, I could not understand what the actors were saying, even with Persian subtitles, so I needed a Kurdish subtitle (Beenar). Saying that “both languages belong to the same family” is meaningless in this context and does not address the point.  Zemen  (talk) 20:43, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

So it sounds like we all ultimately agree on the same outcome regardless of some smaller details. I've gone and ahead and made the changes, including some tweaks to the info, as it sounded a bit off, and still kinda does. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:13, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

I don’t think the order reflect the current language landscape of the city. The Persian should come first. Apsa 54 (talk) 23:17, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

The issue there is no clear-cut description of the current landscape of the city, other than Kurdish and Persian is spoken there, with the latter taking over, just like everywhere else in Iran. WP:RS tends to mention the most relevant/important/whatever languge first, but based on the WP:RS listed here, we don't know the situation for certain, and thus I just did it alphabetically. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:24, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

No, Persian is not taking over in all cities in Iran; for example, the language landscape of Kermanshah is not at all like cities such as Sanandaj, Paveh, or Tabriz. It is experiencing a language shift like Zanjan.

So it is more exact to mention based on the order because almost all WP:RS and WP:SCHOLARSHIP confirm that in recent years the dominant language has become Persian, and as WP:AGE MATTERS we need to keep the correct order not the alphabetical one. Apsa 54 (talk) 23:35, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

So it is more exact to mention based on the order because almost all WP:RS and WP:SCHOLARSHIP confirm that in recent years the dominant language has become Persian,

But we've just been through this, there is no source listed here that says Persian has become the dominant language. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:55, 11 August 2025 (UTC)

I do not want to repeat myself so I am kind of reluctant of the outcome but I trust you as a third opinion. Apsa 54 (talk) 00:27, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

You can also check the Rojatlas map of the languages of Iranian Kurdistan, a very recent project by Suleyman Çûkelli, a geography and GIS expert. The project’s methodology is geographical, combining fieldwork, instrumental surveys, and library research. Statistical data are based on the latest population census (2016) and the official administrative framework of provinces, cities, and villages according to Iran’s latest administrative divisions up to 2023. Communication with local residents, experts, and ordinary people (both digital and non-digital) has played a key role in the project. Cadastral, geographical, and historical documents have also been used.  Zemen  (talk) 12:32, 12 August 2025 (UTC)