Talk:Grand Chancellor of Lithuania

page move discussion

@TaerkastUA, regarding this edit summary: I'm unfamiliar with that naming convention. Would you please link me to that guidelines for future reference? ~TPW 14:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

See WP:NCGAL and WP:NCCAPS. The article titles are proper nouns, but any subsequent references in the actual article can be lowercase. --Tærkast (Discuss) 14:34, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I propose merging Great Seal of Lithuania into Grand Chancellor of Lithuania. I am not convinced that Great Seal of Lithuania meets WP:GNG. The seal, issued in the ruler’s name, was closely linked to the office of the chancellor; it was the main instrument and symbol of his authority. In fact, virtually all the content of the article on the seal falls within the scope of the article on the chancellor, and separating them effectively amounts to repeating the same content. Marcelus (talk) 19:21, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

I think it's worthwhile to keep them separate, because the seal itself as an object was very valuable historically speaking.--+JMJ+ (talk) 20:38, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

@+JMJ+: I agree that the Great Seal of Lithuania should be a separate article because this object is highly notable and was used from the Middle Ages until 1795, and is described in WP:RS texts as a separate notable object from the officer Grand Chancellor of Lithuania who only possessed this notable object (e.g. see: book The History of Lithuania, p. 76; book Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštija ir jos tradicija, p. 167, search for Lithuanian words "didysis Lietuvos antspaudas"; Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia's article about the Union of Lublin, search for a Lithuanian word "antspaudas"; catalog of the National Museum in Warsaw where its English name is used; English publication by the State Archive in Warsaw, p. 8, where the Grand Chancellor of Lithuania is not even mentioned; establishment story of the Vilnius University which is presented in the article and is supported by two WP:RS; etc.). The Grand Chancellor of Lithuania also possessed the Lithuanian Metrica and it would be an absurd to merge the article Lithuanian Metrica to the article about the Grand Chancellor of Lithuania because the object Lithuanian Metrica is also highly notable separately from the officer who historically possessed it. There are many articles about other national seals in the category "National seals". Moreover, the article about the Great Seal of Lithuania has potential for further expansion (e.g. analysis of different periods Great Seals of Lithuania, usage, etc.). -- Pofka (talk) 11:11, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

Today additional reliable sources were added to the article about the Great Seal of Lithuania. For example, in Wojciech Krawczuk's book Pieczęcie Zygmunta III Wazy (pages 34–35) a detailed analysis of the appearance of two versions of the Great Seal of Lithuania from the reign of Sigismund III Vasa is presented. Articles about other countries similar status seals: Great Seal of Australia, Great Seal of Canada, Great Seal of Scotland, Great Seal of the United States demonstrates how such separate articles about national seals can be developed and article about the Great Seal of Lithuania definitely has the same potential to be expanded, improved as a separate article. The Great Seal of Lithuania is not less notable than these Australian/Canadian/Scottish/American national seals. -- Pofka (talk) 17:02, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

Many seals are separately notable. Whether this one is depends on whether the sources in the article about the Seal meet WP:SIGCOV. Do they? If they do, no merge needed. Otherwhise, merge. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:00, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

@+JMJ+ @Piotrus: it seems to me that the topic is borderline WP:SIGCOV; I have not encountered any study that would describe this seal as a separate entity. Primarily because there was no single "Great(er) Seal of Lithuania" - after a ruler’s death it was destroyed and a new one was prepared (which sometimes took some time) with different set of CoAs and legend. So in total there were more than a dozen of them. Moreover, the "Lesser Seal of Lithuania", contrary to what the name suggests, was equal in status to the greater seal and had the same legal significance. It would therefore be logical, if they are to be described at all, to cover them together in a single article: Greater and Lesser Seal of Lithuania. Moreover equally notable are also the Crown seals.Marcelus (talk) 14:42, 16 February 2026 (UTC)

Lesser Seal of Lithuania does not exist. Maybe the best outcome would be to expand the Greater article with info on Lesser seal and rename it? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:30, 17 February 2026 (UTC)

Or maybe simply Seals of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania? It would be good to get an input from more people. Marcelus (talk) 10:01, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

The Great Seal of Lithuania is highly important in the history of Lithuania and internationally (given the historic territory size of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania), so a separate article Great Seal of Lithuania should be kept. The great and lesser seals of Lithuania have some similarities, however they historically were completely different objects, so one article about great and lesser seals of Lithuania would not be a viable solution and I oppose that.--Ed1974LT (talk) 10:09, 20 February 2026 (UTC)

The Grand Chancellor of Lithuania is a political and administrative office. The Great Seal of Lithuania is a physical artifact, a symbol of statehood, and a subject of heraldry and sigillography. While the Chancellor held the seal, merging them conflates the officeholder with the instrument of the office. We do not, for example, merge the Great Seal of the Realm into the Lord High Chancellor of Great Britain, nor the Great Seal of the United States into the United States Secretary of State. There are academic papers and books dedicated specifically to the evolution of Lithuanian state seals, their iconography, the engravers who crafted the matrices, and their legal use on state documents. The fact that the current Wikipedia article might not currently reflect this depth is a reason for expansion, not deletion or merging. Karnemir (talk) 23:46, 16 April 2026 (UTC)