Talk:Fráňa Zemínová

Requested move 22 July 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Contested with minimal participation. Marking no consensus to keep the option open to try again if data changes. (closed by non-admin page mover) Ivey (talk - contribs) 13:30, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

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Fráňa Zemínová → Františka ZeminováFrantiška Zeminová – I disagree with the recent reversal of my move and the justification that it is a "common name". It is common practice that the civil name is preferred over nicknames in the titles of notable people pages, unless the nickname is significantly more common in sources, but this is not the case. She often used the nickname Fráňa Zemínová during her lifetime, but today she is mostly called Františka.

Some sources introduce her as "Františka 'Fráňa' Zeminová", so I do not deny that Fráňa commonly appear, but the form Františka prevails: Františka has slightly more google hits (when excluding "Fráňa") than Fráňa Zemínová (when excluding "Františka") and is used by more significant sources, including public media Czech Television and Czech Radio, and further Parliament of the Czech Republic (where a meeting room is named Františka Zeminová after her), Zprávy Tiscali, Respekt magazine, Database of Political Processes and her birthplace Dolní Chvatliny.

According to the same criteria as when searching on the Internet, there are slightly more occurrences of Františka in books of the 21st century (82 vs 66 hits). FromCzech (talk) 08:33, 22 July 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 15:33, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't believe the claim that It is common practice that the civil name is preferred over nicknames in the titles of notable people pages, unless the nickname is significantly more common in sources is accurate. What WP:COMMONNAME actually says is "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's official name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources)". When searching for English language sources only (and removing Wikipedia), we get 109 for Fráňa and 32 for Františka. This source specifically says she was called Fráňa, which is also the name cs.wiki uses. Number 57 12:51, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

  WP:NCBIO claims that The "First Name Last Name" format applies to the majority of biographical articles on Wikipedia, so yes, this is the default format, which is only changed by the significant occurrence of another name in the sources. The last your source actually says once "Františka Zemínová" and once "Františka [called Fráňa] Zemínová". Cswiki is irrelevant. Your search show only quantity, but there are basically not independent, reliable sources. Your search also exclude sources which write it as Františka 'Fráňa' Zeminová". If you want some reliable English-language sources, here are some: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. You might also find some good English-language sources to support your claim, but they are not in the majority, and it must be taken into account that it is just a nickname. FromCzech (talk) 13:28, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

  We are not talking about a nickname, we are talking about a contracted name (like Bill for William or Rob for Robert). Number 57 13:41, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

  You're right, as a non-native speaker I used the wrong word. In Czech, contracted names occur significantly less frequently than in English, so they are viewed differently. No matter what we call it, it doesn't change the fact that the contracted name is not the common name. FromCzech (talk) 07:49, 23 July 2025 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Women, WikiProject Czech Republic, and WikiProject Biography/Politics and government have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 15:33, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Czech/Czechoslovak

I expressed myself incorrectly in the Edit summary. Because Czechoslovakia consisted of two parts, the Czech and Slovak republics, and because there were many territorial changes in the 20th century (Austria-Hungary => Czechoslovakia => Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia/Slovak Republic => Czechoslovakia => Czech Republic/Slovakia), affiliation with the country Czech/Slovak is preferred, similar to how English/Scottish/Welsh personalities are distinguished. It is particularly inaccurate for Zeminová because she was an activist before the formation of Czechoslovakia and because that information is already in the lead in the second sentence.

See for example Category:20th-century Czech artists, Category:20th-century Slovak painters and Category:20th-century Czech women politicians how the introduction of "Czechoslovaks" is handled. Also, when you link to Czechoslovaks, read its content and notice how few pages link to it (and some of them incorrectly). I see in Category:Czechoslovak women in politics that you created a lot of pages for Czech female politicians, for which I thank you, but at the same time it shows that only you are calling them Czechoslovak in the first sentence, which is against established practice. The word "Czechoslovak" is usually used in cases where a person is truly connected to both countries. If you want to change the approach, you should first discuss it, for example on WikiProjects Czech Republic and Slovakia. FromCzech (talk) 07:44, 23 July 2025 (UTC)

It's misleading to label her as Czech because the Czech Republic did not exist as an independent entity until decades after she died and prior to the creation of Czechoslovakia she would have been 'Bohemian'. It is also not 'against established practice' to label someone by their nationality – this is usually what Wikipedia does – I noticed in your previous edit to the comment above, you cited MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE, which says the first sentence should include "Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable" – Zemínová is notable (via WP:NPOLITICIAN) for being a member of parliament in Czechoslovakia. Number 57 11:47, 23 July 2025 (UTC)

When creating your articles, you ignored what similar existing pages of Czech/Czechoslovaks usually look like. Czechs are not only ethnic group, but also a nation, as the lead in Czechs says, so it is also used to describe nationality. The lead also says that Czechs were called Bohemians until the early 20th century, so when you want to say 'Bohemian' in modern language, you say 'Czech'. That means that 'Czech' is the proper term to describe her affiliation with Bohemia and the Czech part of Czechoslovakia. Her life was not limited to her political career. And as I've said twice already, the information about her political career in Czechoslovakia is specified in the second sentence, so it's pointless to stuff it into the first sentence. FromCzech (talk) 13:16, 23 July 2025 (UTC)

If other articles describe people inappropriately, they need to be amended rather than introduce misleading labels into this article. Number 57 13:40, 23 July 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 19 August 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus We have no new clarity since the previous move was closed as no consensus, merely a rehash of the same arguments. And reopening the same discussion so soon after the previous closure was inappropriate; I would probably have speedy closed on sight if I had seen it then. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:06, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

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Fráňa Zemínová → Františka ZeminováFrantiška Zeminová – Per WP:COMMONNAME. I have proven in the previous discussion that most of of independent reliable sources use this name and not the contracted form. The previous closing of the discussion was based on the number of votes, not the submitted sources, so I am restoring the RM. Below I am attaching the arguments and sources already cited in the first discussion:

Examples of reliable Czech-language sources: public media Czech Television and Czech Radio, and further Parliament of the Czech Republic (where a meeting room is named Františka Zeminová after her), Zprávy Tiscali, Respekt magazine, Database of Political Processes and her birthplace Dolní Chvatliny.

Examples of reliable English-language sources include following websites and books: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. FromCzech (talk) 13:05, 19 August 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose for the same reasons and evidence outlined in the RM above that was closed yesterday (e.g. When searching for English language sources only (and removing Wikipedia), we get 109 for Fráňa and 32 for Františka; this is wider than the cherrypicked sources listed by the proposer). Number 57 13:47, 19 August 2025 (UTC)

  If it has to be, I repeat other arguments from the previous discussion: The use of quotation marks in search field causes many pages where the words Františka and Zeminová are not in a row to be omitted (for example pages where is the word string "Františka Fráňa Zeminová"). If we remove them, we have 245 hits for Františka Zeminová, while Fráňa Zemínová stays on 109. By the way, even in the original opposer's search there were not 32 hits, but 76 (if we display the results hidden by Google, just as there were displayed for the 109 hits for Fráňa). It is not only the quantity of sources that is important, but also their reliability and independence, which is why I have listed several examples. FromCzech (talk) 13:02, 20 August 2025 (UTC)

The problem with your open search is that it gets lots of false positives (one is about Františka Stehlík; one is about Josef Kosina; one is about Františka Schormová (and another mentions that person); one just lists her as 'Fr. Zeminova'; on the third page of hits only three are about Zeminova, one of which refers to her as Frana and another of which is a Wikipedia mirror and reflects you changing her name on that page. Number 57 13:52, 20 August 2025 (UTC)

Although there may be many false positives, there are not so many that the number outweighs in favour of Fráňa. Your search also includes things that are not reliable and independent for determining the common name – I am referring to the many databases that contain the name Fráňa Zemínová as a film character, e.g. 1, 2, 3 4, 5, 6. I'm aware that searching on Google has various pitfalls, but unless you set your search to specifically exclude results that don't suit you, there's no indication that Fráňa would be a more commonly used name for her in the 21st century than Františka. FromCzech (talk) 19:26, 20 August 2025 (UTC)

We have multiple sources that point out that she was known as Frana. This wouldn't be the case if she was commonly known as Františka. Number 57 20:50, 20 August 2025 (UTC)

I'm not saying Fráňa doesn't occur, I'm saying Fráňa is not the common name. However, to your sources: the first one (zenymohou.cz) refers to her as Františka, the second one (Museum Kampa) alternates between both names (3x Františka, 1x Fráňa, 2x Františka 'Fráňa'), the third one (Markian Prokopovych work on prostitution) calls her Františka (Fráňa) Zemínová, and the fourth one (thesis) calls her 1x Františka and 1x Františka [called Fráňa]. So I don't know what it was supposed to prove, when all these sources are in favour of my proposal. FromCzech (talk) 04:26, 21 August 2025 (UTC)

It was pointing out that they all refer to the fact that she was known (commonly) as Fráňa. Number 57 09:44, 21 August 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.