Talk:Clotilde Mabillon

Lead section has extra information

I tagged this article for clean-up because the lead section has extra information about her birth and marriage not mentioned elsewhere. See MOS:LEAD for purpose of the lead. It should provide an accessible overview to, and summary of, the whole article. Information in the lead should be a summary of the information in the in the body of the article. This article's lead has more details about her birth and marriage than the article does. See WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY - Cameron Dewe (talk) 11:56, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

@Cameron Dewe What are those details that the article doesn't have ? Modest family because her only known work among her parents is unemployed (her mother), which by all standards is a very poor social type of people, I could have even summarized it by 'poor' but I chose modest because I felt it was a better way to treat this information, in the absence of her father's work. For the marriage, what is new/different ? Aristoxène (talk) 16:11, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

After finding the marriage act of her parents, which I will add to the article, her father was a 'butcher boy', which by all means, with a mother unemployed and a 'butcher boy' father, you are at least in a modest if not poor family. Aristoxène (talk) 16:15, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Also, Givors is a well known town in the surrounding areas of Lyon, a quick check to the related page shows it, so when I wrote 'Born in the Lyon region' I was trying to not repeat that she was born in Givors, but say it in a different way, maybe it's a matter of translation also because in the French original, and in French generally, it's ugly and inelegant to repeat the same stuff all around (but in FR:WP the first sentence has to contain the exact birth place, which isn't the case in EN:WP where you only say like (1910-1930)), so if I had said that she was born in Givors 10x, it would have been ugly in terms of written expression. I don't feel it's a wrong metonymy, given that Givors is very clearly a city in the Lyon region and that the readers taking it into account will clearly see it. Aristoxène (talk) 16:32, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

Also know that the resume was even larger before and I cut it, and it was hard to do for me because a lot of information (especially in the last paragraph) I felt needed to still be said and are not so easy to synthetize but have a big influence on her life/legacy I believe. Like if she didn't betray, for example, or if X2 wasn't there, her trajectory would have clearly been totally different, so I was kinda pushed to keep the 3rd paragraph (although I remodelled it several times to make it shorter :/) Aristoxène (talk) 16:37, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

The lead says she married in 1884, but the article doesn't give a date, only that she was married at the age of nineteen, which could mean she was married in 1884 or 1885. Having the date in the article constraints when she could have been married, as the marriage must have happened on or after nineteenth birthday in March 1884 ans before the end of the year. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:39, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

@Cameron Dewe Oh yes sorry, the source has the date which was 1st december 1884 in Saint-Etienne. I will put it later on in the page too, sorry. Also if you want to cut the introduction don't hesitate, but it was hard for me to do so. Aristoxène (talk) 10:58, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

Apart from the lead mentioning she was born into a "modest family", which feels like a statement that need far more explanation and citations to explain what a "modest family" means, I think the rest of the lead is probably OK. The article mentions her father was a butcher, but doesn't explain how this equates to the family being "modest". Saying she was the daughter of a butcher and his wife seems obvious, but rephrasing as "She was born into a family of modest means." might be a better summary as I would presume that someone in the butcher's trade would not be considered extremely wealthy. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 11:25, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

@Cameron Dewe +1 (sorry English is not my first language and the AI translates but for some such meanings where the French 'modeste' means somewhat the same but also not exactly the same, I believe it's prone to mistakes that I will have a propensity to miss, for sure, I correct many of the AI translations, because it's not always ultra precize, but this kind of subtelties are hard for me to spot (2) ^^) ; I did the corrections. Aristoxène (talk) 12:58, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

Yes, more direct translations from a foreign language often don't capture the subtle changes of word meanings and language phrasing between the original source and the translated target. It often takes a native expert in the target language to spot such issues. The article reads better now. The changes you have made have addressed the issues I was concerned about, so I have removed the {{Lead extra info}} clean-up notice. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:11, 25 April 2026 (UTC)