Talk:Rade Šerbedžija

Lead sentence

What exactly is the problem with defining an actor born in Croatia and living in Croatia as a Croatian actor? To me this is calling a spade a spade. Surtsicna (talk) 22:37, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that sources say he is a Serb from Croatia, he was born in Yugoslavia, and has been working quite a lot in Serbia. During war in Croatia he came to Serbia (just as vast majority of Croatian Serbs did) and didntstayed in Croatia. The fact that he has a home in Croatia nowadays is hardly enough for labeling him as Croatian. We have many sources claiming diffeerent things (Croatian Serb, Serb, Croatian, Yugoslav...), WP:UNDUE should be applied. FkpCascais (talk) 01:36, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

And an actor who is a Serb from Croatia is a Croatian actor. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies#Context. We do not define people by their ethnicity but we do define them by "the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident". Šerbedžija does not just have a home in Croatia. He also works there; I should hope it is beyond dispute that he is primarily associated with Croatia. In this book he is defined as a "Croatian actor of Serb ethnicity and a decades-long resident of Zagreb", "working on both national and supranational levels (Croatian and Yugoslav in his case)" and on "a number of projects including the filming of Croatian national classics". The sources we have do not claim different things, as "Croatian" does not exclude "Serb" or vice versa. One is a nationality and the other is an ethnicity. That is why one can be a Croatian Serb and why this has nothing to do with WP:UNDUE. Surtsicna (talk) 08:13, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Surtsicna is right. Fkp, Ethnicity should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. It is said so in the Wiki manual of style. I don't see the relevance here. It's similar with Tesla. He hardly has any connections to Serbia and you would like to call him a Serbian scientist/inventor. Tesla was born and lived in Croatia and America. Rade was born and lives in Croatia. Just face the fact that Serbs live in Croatia that America is full of many ethnicites and so on. By your logic no one would be an American something...Also by your logic Novak Djokovic is Croatian/Montenegrin tennis player, but you won't accept that. To you he's a Serbian tennis player, although he is not Serbian by ethnicity but half Croat and half Montenegrin. Well, he lives and works from Serbia, has Serbian nationality and that's why label him as a Serbian tennis player. I know how hard you tried to argue otherwise, but you know we had RfCs and how they finished. Do we really need another one here? 141.138.35.187 (talk) 20:59, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, but would you mind logging in? I think FkpCascais was simply not aware that Šerbedžija doesn't just "have a home in Croatia nowadays", i.e. that he has actually lived in Croatia for the vast majority of his life and career, including the present time. Hopefully that's sorted now. Surtsicna (talk) 21:47, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't have an account. 141.138.35.187 (talk) 22:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Oh, forgive me. You do sound like you have quite a history here. Surtsicna (talk) 22:25, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Fkp, just deal with the fact that Yugoslavia broke apart. Serbedzija was born in Croatia which has since broke away from Yugoslavia. You can't say that he wasn't born in Croatia just because Croatia was a part of Yugoslavia back then. SR Croatia was a federal state and he was born in SR Croatia. Yugoslavia doesn't exist any more but Croatia does. The same happened for Tesla. He was born in Croatia which was then a part of Austrian Empire. As you know, much later Tesla himself has said that he was born in Croatia. Austrian Empire didn't exist any more and why would he say that he was born in Austrian Empire when Croatia existed at the time he was born there and throughout his life. Look we live in the real word. 141.138.35.187 (talk) 22:12, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Also, look Fkp. I noticed that you reverted 3 times and you didn't start any discussion. It was Surtsicna who started the discussion, but you are the one who is seeking a consensus, since you want to change a long standing edit. You should have stared the discussion instead of edit warring. 141.138.35.187 (talk) 22:16, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I am sensing some battleground here and I do not like that. Please try to remain calm and don't make it personal. Surtsicna (talk) 22:25, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Ok, sorry. Basically, my stand is that we should apply the same principle that was agreed on Novak Djokovic RfC. In the lead it's stated that he is a Serbian tennis player, and later on his ethnicity is stated, but not in the lead. I know that you Fkp didn't agree with that RfC, but a lot of editors had participated and we have reached a consensus there. We should apply it here. 141.138.35.187 (talk) 22:36, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

@Surtsicna: this is User:Asdisis who is indef-blocked. The guy is totally obsessed with Croatian-Serbian debates. At Nikola Tesla he was so stubborn that he got himself indef-blocked. Ever since, he has been around contributing as IP. Numerous admins have been blocking his IPs but he just says he will change the IP and continue. His case will probably reach the highest levels and will potentially create new mechanisms to fight such obssessive editors/vandals. At least some of us hope, cause he has been the extreme exemple of how IP can be indefinitelly missused by indef-blocked editors. Regarding the issues in discussion, he is often more usefull to opposite side then his own. His nationalistic and victimizational rethoric and arguments end up mostly helping the opposite side. Then, he has this personal issue with me, since I am Serbian. Surtsicna, you are a Croatian editor and I a Serbian one, so we will possibly clash in some articles. As I say in my user-page "I prefer to have healty discussions with people that I disagree with than having rude unpolite "friends". It is actually a good thing to have editors from all sides, I believe it helps reaching NPOV generally. In my view we should always aim for an edit everyone agrees on. So, we should try to involve more editors here to reach a consensus. FkpCascais (talk) 01:27, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

No, FkpCascais, I am not a Croatian editor. If that's something you figured out from my stance in this discussion, you must have taken part in too many Croatian-Serbian debates :D Surtsicna (talk) 19:25, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

@Surtsicna:, as you see, Fkp and I know each other from before. He's been forever accusing me of being a sock. Regardless of this our dispute, there is a RfC on Novak Djokovic page about the same issue as here and we should use it. I agree about involving more editors. We can ping editors who participated in Novak Djokovic RfC. 141.138.35.187 (talk) 07:12, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the present wording. Rade Šerbedžija was born, lives and works from Croatia. He is a Croatian actor of Serbian ethnicity. I see the Dokovic discussion where it was agreed that ethnicity shouldn't be in the lead, but is stated later on. If everything works there , it should also work here. Best regards. Bilseric (talk) 07:35, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, RfC on Novak Djokovic page got unanimous 11 to 0 opinions that ethnicity shouldn't be in the lead. The conclusion, stated by uninvolved admin is stated in that RfC. Even Fkp was advocating that ethnicity shouldn't be stated. Bdw, we should apply the same principe on Tesla article since he also has ethnicity stated in the lead. I know Fkp will accuse me of bias, but that's a Wiki guideline and an opinion of numerous editors on Novak Djokovic RfC. 89.164.132.71 (talk) 16:18, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

So "Croatian" means what, that he has Croatian passport? FkpCascais (talk) 16:29, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

No. It means that he has lived in Croatia almost his entire life and that he has been associated primarily with Croatia throughout his career. A physician from France is a French physician; a lawyer from Spain is a Spanish lawyer; and an actor from Croatia is a Croatian actor. That has nothing to do with their ethnic or racial backgrounds. Rasim Ljajić is a Serbian politician despite him not being a Serb. Surtsicna (talk) 19:25, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Same goes for Novak Djokovic. Serbian tennis player although not being Serbian by ethnicity. Why are you now wondering about this , while you were against including ethnicity to Novak Djokovic page at all? Not just in the lead. You wanted it completely out of the article. 89.164.132.71 (talk) 19:58, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I think we got your point about Djokovic. His name has been mentioned 17 times in this section. No reason to bring him up for an 18th time. Surtsicna (talk) 20:06, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Good. Then, I think we can conclude this. 89.164.132.71 (talk) 20:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

He is as much Croatian as Serbian actor. Still no clear point. Also, he has not been associated to Croatia, that doesnt even make sense. FkpCascais (talk) 10:35, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

If you are seriously claiming that Šerbedžija is associated with Serbia (where he lived for a year) as much as he is with Croatia (where he was born and where he has lived and worked for decades up to the present day) then I must conclude that your judgement is severely impaired by your patriotism. If, on the other hand, you are still confusing ethnicity with country of residence, the only explanation I have is that you have made no effort to grasp the distinction. Surtsicna (talk) 19:09, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

He's been doing this for ages. Most recently here . 89.164.132.71 (talk) 20:24, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Missing tv credit.

2022 - The Old Man - episode 6 - Suleyman Pavlovich 24.224.35.105 (talk) 01:52, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

ethnicity in the lead

I noticed some drive-by nationalist edit and reverted it, but then I looked at the history and most of the edits this year have been about the lead sentence's use of "Croatian", "Serbian", etc. While we should probably not care too much about what could be a single anonymous with an axe to grind, I see someone reverted even the use of "Croatian Serb", which I thought was odd. While his notability isn't primarily derived from being a Croatian Serb, that fact has obviously had a significant impact on his biography. Per MOS:ETHNICITY, this factoid is relevant, even if it is secondary.

Also, a mention of Yugoslavia of some kind might be appropriate as well, but I don't know that it would read well if we crammed that in too. --Joy (talk) 07:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

In his own autobiography "Do posljednjeg daha", Rade Serbedzija calls himself a 'Croatian actor' exclusively. He acknowledges his Serb heritage, but mentions that he is Croatian by birth, upbringing, education, mentality and legacy. There are a lot interviews with him talking about his complex identity, but he always ends the discussion with his professional and personal life being closely intertwined with Croatia. For this reason calling him a 'Croatian actor' is the most accurate description. Denle1 (talk) 09:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

How would saying he's a Croatian Serb actor detract from that? I had a look at that biography, it has unequivocal statements from Šerbedžija saying he's a Croatian actor to someone who seemed to think he wasn't Croatian enough. The encyclopedia lead section isn't going to be judging him for being both Croatian and a Serb. --Joy (talk) 14:07, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@Denle1 I see this cropped up again. Unless you have an actual rationale against saying he's Croatian Serb, it should not be reverted.

Here's some recent mainstream Croatian interviews that cover the topic from a quick search:

• 2022 Večernji list https://www.vecernji.hr/showbiz/rade-serbedzija-o-svom-podrijetlu-ja-sam-krajisnik-ja-sam-covjek-ja-sam-srbin-iz-hrvatske-1603747
• 2016 Dnevnik.hr relaying Večernje novosti https://dnevnik.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/rade-serbedzija-za-vecernje-novosti-ja-sam-stopostotni-srbin---461645.html

There's also this 2018 Index.hr article that carries an RTV revija 1991 interview about the same thing https://www.index.hr/magazin/clanak/zasto-je-zaista-rade-serbedzija-1991-otisao-iz-zagreba/2013929.aspx

There's no real conflict between any of these four sources. --Joy (talk) 19:35, 20 July 2025 (UTC)

@Surtsicna last year on this Talk page, directly above this message, I listed sources which showed the extent to which his ethnicity has influenced his notability. I have no idea why you are trying to censor this information, when it's clearly been a major topic in the person's public life for literally decades. --Joy (talk) 19:43, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

I do not see any indication in the cited sources that Šerbedžija's ethnicity has influenced his notability. They merely discuss his ethnicity. This article does too. Yet it is not a defining aspect per WP:ETHNICITY, no more than Morgan Freeman's African American heritage or Larry King's Jewish identity are defining. Surtsicna (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

There is no such standard in WP:ETHNICITY, where are you coming up with this? It's simply relevant to the person's notability. Could you try reading the manual of style before trying to use it as a cudgel to beat people over the head with?

The comparison with these other actors does not appear to be pertinent, because for example Rade Šerbedžija's life was directly affected by the conflict between the Serbs and the Croats during his lifetime, which is why it was the topic of so much coverage, while for example the article on Morgan Freeman does not actually seem to cover much in the way of any of his experiences that would have been in a similar vein. --Joy (talk) 07:46, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

Could you kindly pipe down a bit? That would be much appreciated.
Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Freeman's article mentions his ethnicity throughout and even ties it to his career: starring in an all-black version of Hello, Dolly! and in a film about an African-American regiment and directing a film about a black policeman during South Africa's apartheid era. There is nothing about Šerbedžija's ethnic heritage that is relevant to his acting career, i.e. to the thing that makes him notable, let alone in comparison with other actors.
That Šerbedžija's ethnicity had an impact on his personal life is also not grounds for inclusion in the lead sentence: Henry Kissinger was quite affected by the Nazi persecution of Jews, Alan Turing by anti-gay laws, Muhammad Ali by Islamophobia. We are not supposed to burden the lead sentence with details about the subject's personal life. Surtsicna (talk) 18:32, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

Šerbedžija's status as possibly the best known Croatian Serb actor of his generation, with documented 'baggage' about it that is very well intertwined with the realities of his acting career, is absolutely relevant to his notability. The idea that there's nothing about his ethnic heritage that was relevant to his acting career is frankly bizarre. The argument that this was just an aspect of the person's personal life is already debunked by its coverage in sources. I am amazed that you're trying to prescribe against that reality.

The encyclopedia should describe the fundamental realities of this biography without this sort of a contrived judgement. --Joy (talk) 20:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

And Morgan Freeman is possibly the best known African American actor of his generation. The reality is that we do not highlight the subject's ethnic, sexual, or religious identity in the lead sentence unless it is defining. Such identities are defining for people like clergy, activists, and arguably politicians in consociationalist or confessionalist states. They are not defining for actors. Surtsicna (talk) 21:31, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

Honestly I don't know why you're pushing this comparison with the Freeman article - maybe that article should be changed, maybe not, it has no relevance to how the sources describe Šerbedžija. There is no "highlighting" involved. The concept of "defining" in this case is not based on any known standard and is moot at best. --Joy (talk) 07:42, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

We do not have to compare him with Freeman. We can instead compare him with Oprah, Adam Sandler, Frida Kahlo, Freddie Mercury, Leo Varadkar, or Zlatan Ibrahimović. You will find plenty of sources describing them as Black, gay, Jewish, etc, yet we do not define them as such in the lead sentence. I am bringing up these examples to illustrate to you how WP:ETHNICITY works. I have not yet seen a compelling reason to treat this article as an exception. Surtsicna (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

I really don't understand why you keep making comparisons that just don't make sense. Let's take Ibrahimović, as he's technically the closest one with the ethnic topic area - he was born in Sweden, and his career went on from there. It did not involve former Yugoslavia and moving around as the breakup unfolded. Šerbedžija's career was materially affected by these circumstances, and there's no actual dispute about that.

Even with regard to the guideline you're ostensibly citing, surely you noticed that among the examples in there is also one that says Per the above guidance, we do not add ethnicity ("Jewish-American") or country of birth ("Russian-born American"). These details can be introduced in the second sentence if they are of defining importance. Adding "of Serbian descent" at the end of the first sentence is basically the same as doing it in the sentence immediately afterwards. When even the guideline says it's appropriate to introduce those details right there, the claim that there is some sort of an exception involved when describing Šerbedžija the same way sources do - is unfounded. --Joy (talk) 07:42, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

I explained why I am making comparisons, and they make perfect sense. If mentioning ethnicity at the end of the first sentence were the same as mentioning it in the second, the guideline would say that it is okay to add it in the first too. And I still do not see how Šerbedžija's ethnicity is of a more defining importance than Oprah's ethnicity or Freddie's sexuality. The suggestion that Ibrahimović's ethnicity has not had an impact on his life and career is quite uninformed. So yes, you are asking for an exception and not making a case for it. Surtsicna (talk) 17:49, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

That's a whole bunch of unsupported assertions. --Joy (talk) 08:32, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Unsupported except by the cited guideline and biographies, right. Surtsicna (talk) 18:35, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Again, I've cited chapter and verse which part supports this.

The idea that Šerbedžija has "downplayed his ethnic background throughout his career" is immaterial even if true, because the sources on it have not.

As you can see, I am trying to find a compromise wording here, but the idea that we should deviate from relaying source coverage because of anyone's individual actions is antithetical to the principles of verifiability and due weight. --Joy (talk) 19:18, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

What you cited says "if defining". I am challenging the assertion that it is defining. We should obviously mention the subject's ethnicity (and we have for years), but we should not give it undue prominence. Surtsicna (talk) 18:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

The matter was unequivocally defining during the breakup of Yugoslavia, which is why it received so much coverage. Trying to pretend it was just a neutral factoid would in fact fail to give it due weight. The fact that this was then publicly discussed decades later just underscored its existing prominence. --Joy (talk) 19:43, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

This article is not about the breakup of Yugoslavia. Šerbedžija's career has spanned five decades. Sources are still discussing Freddie's sexuality, and it quite clearly affected him, yet it is not defining.

Put it in the article, give context, elaborate. But not everything that is relevant is defining and essential lead sentence material. Surtsicna (talk) 20:46, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

The ethnicity-related moves were pivotal in Šerbedžija's career. --Joy (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2026 (UTC)