Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles

Derry Girls

There is a conversation on the talk page for Derry Girls regarding nationality that is potentially relevant to followers of this area. Canterbury Tail talk 14:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Mayo, County Mayo

The current article for the town of Mayo has the title of Mayo, County Mayo. Should this be changed? Mind the gap 1 (talk) 13:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Why should/would it be? Based on what rationale? And changed to what title? Guliolopez (talk) 14:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

As per MOS:IRISHCOUNTIES, "do not follow a town with an eponymous county, e.g. Sligo, not Sligo, County Sligo". I am asking here as this seems like a special case, because "Mayo" cannot be used on its own like Sligo can. Mind the gap 1 (talk) 13:56, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Indeed. Mayo is already disambiguation page. Which includes the sauce and the clinic and any number of other things called "Mayo". What title are you proposing for the subject of this article? Guliolopez (talk) 16:37, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Apologies, I'm not sure that is why I'm asking here Mind the gap 1 (talk) 18:43, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Hi. Personally I do not see that there is really any:

1. policy reason for a change. The MOS:IRISHCOUNTIES guideline that you mention to is about "referring to a city". In text. Not article titles. The policy that covers article titles is WP:NCPLACE#Ireland. Which provides that "Where disambiguation is required, [[placename, County x]] is used".
2. policy-consistent alternative title that would be appropriate. (Other comma comma-separated titles, like Mayo, Ireland, are open to DAB issues with the county/etc. And a parenthetical suffix would be inconsistent with WP:NCDAB. And the specific Ireland placename guideline above.)
3. point in discussing it at any length. As, while I just about understand the reason for asking, absent an actual proposal (and a specific problem to solve) it is a largely "open" question.

Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 00:07, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Formal Challenge to IMOS Naming Convention for County Derry

Argument:

The current Wikipedia Manual of Style (IMOS)policy, which mandates the use of "County Londonderry" while excluding "County Derry," violates the core pillar of Neutral Point of View (NPOV). The 2004 "compromise" reflects an outdated, pro-colonial legalism that prioritizes 17th-century Royal Charters over modern democratic and cultural realities.

1. Legal Inaccuracy: While British administrative law cites the 1613 and 1662 Charters, the Constitution of Ireland and the Government of Ireland officially recognize the county as . By defaulting to the UK's nomenclature, Wikipedia is taking a side in a sovereign dispute rather than maintaining neutrality.
2. Cultural Erasure: The claim that "County Derry never existed" is factually misleading. The name  has been the authentic identifier of the land for millennia. The current policy treats the Plantation of Ulster as the "Year Zero" of the county's history, effectively erasing the thousands of years of Irish continuity that predates English intervention.
3. Widespread Usage: Organizations like the GAA, which operates on a 32-county basis, have used "Derry" for over 140 years. To label this "common usage" while calling colonial records "official" is a biased framing that ignores the institutions most central to the lives of the people residing there.
4. Parity of Esteem: Under the Good Friday Agreement, the identity and naming conventions of the Irish community must be treated with equal respect. Wikipedia's refusal to acknowledge "County Derry" as a valid, primary title fails to uphold this international legal principle.

Requested Action:

I move that the IMOS be updated to allow for  to be used either as the primary title or as an equal co-designation (Derry/Londonderry) to reflect the 32-county reality and the official stance of the Irish state. ~2026-82493-6 (talk) 15:02, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

Pretty much every single thing you said above is incorrect. Canterbury Tail talk 15:55, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

It also appears to be LLM-generated. Which isn't in keeping with norms for use of LLMs. Guliolopez (talk) 16:40, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

Biographical articles on TDs

Three things occur to me in relation to biographical articles on politicians:

• when naming the constituency, it seems unnecessary to add the word "constituency", so instead of "... for the Kildare constituency (and later the Kildare North constituency) from 1977 to 2004", it can simply be "... for Kildare (and later Kildare North) from 1977 to 2004" (for Charlie McCreevy)
• the word Teachta Dála should not be spelled out within the body. The Oireachtas website uses the term TDs and Senators. Where else would we someone described as "a Teachta Dála for Dublin Central"? I agree with changes made by Spleodrach to current TDs, leaving them as a linked TD. What about the infobox? I can see why that could be left the same, but perhaps that too could be reduced to TD. We could consider the principles at MOS:ABBR
• the opening paragraph in the introduction of an article on a minister shouldn't list all their previous portfolios, with perhaps an exception for one significant one like Finance. Say this version of Mary Hanafin, which could be reduced in relevant part to "cabinet minister from 2004 to 2011 and a junior minister from 2000 to 2004".

Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:54, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

Support - I agree with all these points. Spleodrach (talk) 19:23, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

Oppose - Using the initialism without the full name being used first is a violation of MOS:NOFORCELINK. Jon698 (talk) 19:28, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

No one outside of Ireland knows what Teachta Dála means. They have to check the link. This just uses the common name in English in Ireland as the default. No one in Ireland calls them Teachta Dála, its always TD. Spleodrach (talk) 19:32, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

You appear to be forgetting that non-Irish people read Wikipedia too. Nobody outside of Ireland would know what a TD. It is for the same reason we call them members of the U.S. House of Representatives and not just members of the House. Jon698 (talk) 19:33, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

No, non-Irish were exactly my point. They don't know that a Teachta Dála is, its meaningless to them, therefore they have to check the link. So why does it make any difference then, if they to check the link for Teachta Dála or TD?

Wikipedia is for everybody. We do not use local shorthand, that is why we use the full name for the legislative body and not TD as the name of the article. It is for the same reason that we should continue to link to the full name. BTW it is poor form to push ahead with changes you support while a discussion is happening. I advise that you stop changing articles to include the initialism while the discussion is open. Jon698 (talk) 19:43, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

I also highly advise that you read policies like MOS:NOFORCELINK. Jon698 (talk) 19:54, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

With reference to MOS:NOFORCELINK, "Use a link when appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence". I don't see how this contravenes that. Who is the reader who would not understand what a TD is, but would understand when the Irish language words Teachta Dála are given. No one outside Ireland will know what Teachta Dála means. In either case, if the context doesn't make it clear, they're going to have to click on the link. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 21:56, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

Read pages like those for members of parliament in Canada and the United Kingdom. They clearly use the full "member of Parliament (MP)" and not just MP despite the fact that many people only use the initialism as well. It would be nonsense to only use MP for the same reason it is nonsense to only use TD. Jon698 (talk) 01:35, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

I hadn't seen this earlier, but I think it worth separately responding to this observation. In English-language media, one might hear a member of the House of Commons being described as a member of parliament, or simply as an MP. In text, either can be used. Again, in English-language media, one would never hear someone being described as a Teachta Dála, only ever as a TD. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 17:55, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

Please show me any example of another country solely using initialism for Wikipedia pages that mention its legislative bodies. Jon698 (talk) 19:34, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

Oppose Point 2 - I'm afraid I have to agree with Jon698; in any article, you have to have one instance of establishing what an initialism stands for before utilising it. It should be "Teachta Dála (TD)" in the opening paragraph, and then simply "TD" thereafter. This is the case for British Members of Parliament, MPs and the same format should be universal. Respectfully, I think Spleodrach should wait for a consensus to be reached in this discussion before converting all pages to their preferred format. CeltBrowne (talk) 02:08, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

The reason the universal format shouldn't apply here is that the abbreviation is not for an English word, and so giving it in full is unnatural in the context. Not that there aren't some Irish words that are used in common speech in this context (Taoiseach, etc.), but Teachta Dála isn't one of them. I can't imagine a printed work using the term in full in this context in English (e.g., "Enda Kenny was elected as a Teachta Dála in 1975", though I could imagine reading in Irish, "Bhí sé tofa ina Theachta Dála i 1975"). It is not the case that there is always one instance of establishing what an initialism stands for; MOS:IE gives quite a few examples. Just as one shouldn't feel the need to write out digital versatile disc on first mention, the natural usage is to use TD on its own. Maybe the a.m. example is a more apt one, because of the linguistic difference.

To the reader from the US, to pick a English-speaking country which calls its equivalent congressman and congresswoman, or Representative (Rep.), writing out Member of Parliament (MP) in an article on a British politician aids them, because they might not be as familiar with the term. Writing out Teachta Dála (TD) doesn't aid them, because if they don't know what a TD is, the Irish words won't assist either. In either case, to find out more (e.g., which house of the parliament this is), they'd have to follow through on the link. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 07:29, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

Read articles like C. P. Radhakrishnan ("member of parliament in Lok Sabha."), Om Birla (Speaker of the Lok Sabha), Nyam-Osoryn Uchral (member of the State Great Khural), members of the Jatiya Sangsad, or others nations where we use non-English words for their legislative bodies. We do not use initialisms. Jon698 (talk) 13:11, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

The analogy isn't quite the same. "Member of parliament in Lok Sabha" tells the reader from outside Ireland that Radhakrishnan is a member of parliament, and is a natural usage in English. The words "Teachta Dála" do not do so; someone unfamiliar with the term TD does not understand better what it means by having it spelled out as Teachta Dála. In essence, we are adding text without adding to understanding. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 17:51, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

The analogy is completely the same. You are arguing that we should give Ireland special treatment that no other country is given. We do not use initialisms. We call them members of parliament and not MPs, representatives and not reps. and Teachta Dála not TD. Jon698 (talk) 18:26, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

It's not about what we should do here, but what the rest of the world does. The different treatment I'm arguing for is that its usage should reflect that the usage of the term in general in English, outside of Wikipedia. While the parliamentary chamber is referred to as the Dáil in English, and only as such, its representatives are referred to as TDs, and not in common usage as Teachtaí Dála. If I were listening to BBC introduce Hannah Spencer, I wouldn't notice if she were described as "the new member of parliament" or "the new MP". On the other hand, if I'm listening to RTÉ Radio 1, I would never hear them introduce someone as "Teachta Dála for Dublin Bay South" (though I might on the Irish language station RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta). Similarly, print media in the English language would only ever refer to them as a TD (or perhaps as a deputy), and never as a Teachta Dála. In that way, it is closer to the examples listed at MOS:EG of abbreviations that don't need to be spelled out. None of these refer to members of parliament, but similarly reflect general usage. What I'm contending is that we can use TD on its own, just as we use AD without writing out the Latin. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 07:40, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

You have just listed an example opposed to your point that people only use TD. Also TD is not a dating system that is universally used across the world. The other examples listed in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Abbreviations (DVD, HDMI, Radar, Sonar, and USB) are used because those are the article titles. Unless you intend to move Teachta Dála to TD then that argument is mute. Jon698 (talk) 16:52, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

The example I gave is that when speaking Irish, I would expect someone on RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta to say Teachta Dála. But that is a matter for Vicipéid. In English, I can't readily think of instances where Teachta Dála would be used in speech or print, except in an article about the Dáil itself, so not a biographical article. I wouldn't suggest moving Teachta Dála to TD, as that is a disambiguation page. However, none of the other articles referred to there are ones that could cause confusion in writing, "Séamus Pattison was a TD for Carlow–Kilkenny".

English-language Wikipedia should use terminology and language in a manner that is common in English. It is not common practice when writing in English to describe someone as a Teachta Dála. As a general rule, of course an abbreviation should be spelled out in full on first usage. That assists someone unfamiliar with the term to make sense of it, without necessarily having to click through on the link to discern what it stands for. In this instance, if someone doesn't know what a TD is, they won't know what a Teachta Dála is either. For that very particular reason, it is superfluous to spell out what a TD means in a biographical article. Articles on Dáil Éireann, politics in the Republic of Ireland, etc. should continue to explain the term.

To turn a question around, how do you consider it aids understanding to write "she was elected as a Teachta Dála (TD)" as opposed to "she was elected as a TD"? Iveagh Gardens (talk) 16:41, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

Support #1 & #3, Oppose #2. I agree wholeheartedly with CeltBrowne's position. Xx78900 (talk) 12:50, 8 March 2026 (UTC)

Though the discussion has become quiet, indicating that there's perhaps a consensus against my proposal, I thought to return with external evidence. At the Dictionary of Irish Biography, a search for Teachta Dála gives only links to abbreviation conventions, whereas a search for TD gives plenty of results, e.g., for Tony Gregory, "Gregory, Tony (1947–2009), republican socialist, community activist and TD".

Why should the convention be different for the biographical articles on Wikipedia than that of the authoritative biographical Irish resource? The suggestion that it is to aid someone not familiar with the term doesn't convince me, as I cannot imagine who the person is who is unfamiliar with the term TD, but would understand the words Teachta Dála (which is why MOS:FORCELINK isn't a guideline that assists). I'm not saying that we can't have a different style than the DIB, but I don't see how this is one that assists the reader. It would in any case be linked as TD.

This is English-language Wikipedia, and whether or not we're talking about Hiberno-English, the words Teachta Dála are not ones used in English. This is different to terms like Dáil Éireann, so we might ordinarily write, "was elected to Dáil Éireann in 1957" just as much as "was elected as a TD in 1957", but not "was elected as a Teachta Dála in 1957". Iveagh Gardens (talk) 08:33, 17 March 2026 (UTC)

It was not a wide discussion. One full support, three opposes (most of the text from one), and most regular editors on Irish topics not engaged yet - so I don’t think a conclusion should be drawn yet. I Support all three points, noting that Teachta Dála is simply not in common usage in any way, so not comparable to "Member of Parliament", etc. - call it a local peculiarity that ”TD” is the general usage. SeoR (talk) 12:08, 17 March 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. I've begun noticing instances across the project in which we use the abbreviation which would not be helped by adopting the opposite approach of writing it out, e.g., on articles such as Irish presidential election or Local government in the Republic of Ireland. It would be good idea to include in the style guide that the use of TDs should always be linked on first usage, to allow for someone unfamiliar with Irish terminology to learn more, but not that this should be spelled out as Teachtaí Dála in these instances. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 09:12, 20 March 2026 (UTC)