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The heritage listed former New South Wales Sports Club building

June 3

Margaret E. Gaskell

Margaret Gaskell (d:Q138866936), known as "Meta", was a daughter of Elizabeth Gaskell.

Some modern sources give "Margaret Emily Gaskell" (, ), others "Margaret Elizabeth Gaskell" (; Wikidata). Which name is correct? Were both used during her lifetime? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:04, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

Jenny Uglow's massive biography Elizabeth Gaskell (Faber & Faber, 1993), p. 105, gives the name as Margaret Emily. I can't immediately find anyone on Google Books calling her Margaret Elizabeth. To me the question is how did this idea ever start? --Antiquary (talk) 15:46, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

Purely speculative on my part but perhaps it arose out of accidental combination with her mother's name? The Wikidata entry mentions this Trinity College Archives page. GalacticShoe (talk) 16:36, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

Baptised Margaret Emily 28 Sept 1837, Manchester Cross Street Presbyterian. Father William, mother Elizabeth Cleghorn (Stevenson). General Register Office: Registers Of Births, Marriages And Deaths Surrendered To The Non-Parochial Registers Commissions Of 1837 And 1857, Archive reference TNA/RG/4/2009. DuncanHill (talk) 16:45, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

Thanks all. I've corrected Wikidata and will let Cambridge know of their error. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:52, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

(ec) Margaret Emily Gaskell of 84 Plymouth-grove, Manchester, spinster died 26 October 1913. Probate Manchester 21 November to Arthur Henry Worthington and Frank Augustus Padmore solicitors. Effects £50223 0s 9d. England & Wales Government Probate Death Index 1858-2019. DuncanHill (talk) 16:52, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

Short bio of her here, quotes Daily Chronicle obituary "Many Englishwomen of our time have earned wider fame, but few have lived more remarkable or more fruitful lives than Miss M.E Gaskell". Bio mentions she and sister built the Shieling at Silverdale, which was later home of Gordon Bottomley, and the subject of one of Edward Thomas's last poems. And of course, Lloyd George knew his father. Really. They used to walk to work together. DuncanHill (talk) 17:10, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

It's possible, of course, that Mrs Gaskell knew Lloyd George's father. He taught in a Unitarian school in Liverpool for a while, and knew James Martineau and possibly Harriet too. DuncanHill (talk) 17:54, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

That makes a refreshing change. Usually it's the other way round. Chuntuk (talk) 08:51, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

 This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Cambridge have now corrected their record. Gold stars all round! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:53, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Papal sash

How this long papal sash inscribed with "Ave Maria mater Iesu" is called? I thought it's pallium, but it looks wider and with peculiar embroidery, unlike others. Brandmeister ^talk 20:38, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

To me it looks like it's decoration on the front of his vestment, not a detached thing. Johnbod (talk) 20:59, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

Maybe a Dalmatic? Our Vestment and Papal regalia and insignia articles might be helpful. Alansplodge (talk) 21:06, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

I think the main vestment is a Chasuble, the normal RC top layer. Johnbod (talk) 21:11, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

On a second look indeed, the lower brim appears to coincide with the rest, in that case could be something else. Brandmeister ^talk 21:15, 3 June 2026 (UTC)

June 4

U.S. History textbooks on Native History

lta –fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 07:52, 9 June 2026 (UTC) The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I'm interested in reading this book. According to the book, called "An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States for Young People" by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, this reads "For example, many school textbooks uncritically accept the ideas expressed in the Doctrine of Discovery, Jefferson's statement on expansion, and Manifest Destiny" and how they view the relations between Indigenous peoples in Americans and first European settlers, as cultural conflict. With this statement, suggesting that there were good and bad people of all of these sides, I would find it unamusing, given the fact that most of these Europeans, spent their time on not only enslaving them, but wiping their indigenous cultures out, as a result of the aggressive colonization, and expansion of this new country. What I learned from this book, is that there is a multicultural interpretation, that only the dominant group made contributions, instead of Indigenous peoples, immigrants, women, and African people, despite making inventions that originated from the New World. This rather casted Indigenous peoples, as a racial group, instead of understanding the political differences between each tribe and the nations. So, can you please explain the issues within the school textbooks, in teaching the Native history, and why do these textbooks suggest that Native peoples only exist in the past? What observation could you think on how these textbooks about the history of Native Americans, could be improved to include the modern times, and as of 21st century? Thank you for this.

References

-- ~2026-33106-46 (talk) 09:55, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

It sounds like you have concerns about the way history is framed in American textbooks, but it is hard to engage with such a broad generalization. Could you point to specific textbooks or curricula that you feel are problematic? I’m interested in understanding which passages or frameworks you're referring to, as my own experience with history education has been quite varied. I think it would be more productive to look at specific instances where you feel the narrative is lacking or biased so we can actually evaluate those claims.

If you are interested in a deeper look at the complexities of history, particularly regarding Indigenous experiences, you might find Plagues, Politics, and Policy: A Chronicle of the Indian Health Service, 1955–2008 very insightful. It offers a much more detailed and modern analysis of these topics. ~2026-16820-81 (talk) 11:07, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

When looking at textbooks written for young people, we often face the phenomenon of “lies we tell to children”… where the authors simplify complex concepts and make generalizations that are not made by textbooks written for older students. Perhaps that is a factor here? Blueboar (talk) 12:31, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

History books for young people serve the purpose of introducing well-known subjects to them. It's later (in high school and college) where the truthful details get more exposure. They don't want kids to be cynical too soon. That comes later! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:06, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

@~2026-16820-81 @Blueboar @Baseball Bugs Explain more on textbooks being sanitized for young children, while the truth being exposed for older children and teenagers, and college students? Is that all very calculated? ~2026-33106-46 (talk) 23:57, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

When evaluating history textbooks for children, I believe we prioritize biological development over ideological agendas. Children are not small adults. Their brains are physically still developing and lack the neural architecture required to process complex systemic concepts like historical trauma. It is vital that we respect these physical realities of childhood by providing age-appropriate content, rather than pushing adult-level moral assessments that the developing brain is not yet physically equipped to navigate. ~2026-16820-81 (talk) 12:50, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Very true. It's kind of related to why we don't teach calculus or other advanced subjects to first graders. It's considered more important to know who George Washington was than to know about all his specific personal shortcomings. That comes later. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:46, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

@Lambiam @Avocado @Matt Deres @Card Zero @Pigsonthewing @DuncanHill @JackofOz Any other words? We know that biological development over ideological agendas are definitely and actually the priority here, all thanks to the brain development in terms of psychology. ~2026-33106-46 (talk) 02:51, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

@~2026-33106-46 -- why are you pinging me? Not really appropriate since I haven't been involved in the conversation and have not previously shown an interest in the topic.. -- Avocado (talk) 13:12, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

I will take a look into "Plagues, Politics, and Policy: A Chronicle of the Indian Health Service" best for learning something. ~2026-33106-46 (talk) 06:27, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

I've never been to an American school. But this "respect these physical realities of childhood by providing age-appropriate content, rather than pushing adult-level moral assessments" guff seems to me to be a smokescreen. Teaching in early years involves moral judgements. Who was George Washington? Is Washington presented as a hero? I bet he is. A hero slave-owner. Great role-model for the children of the USA. The Pilgrims coming to America to seek religious freedom? Not for Quakers, or Catholics. But let's get the myth ingrained in early childhood, that'll make it so much harder to shift later. The Land of the Free and the Home of the Ethnic Stereotype. DuncanHill (talk) 08:24, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

What do British elementary schools have to say about Charles' unfaithfulness to Diana? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:59, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Lord Nelson would be a more interesting and equal comparison to Washington, I think. ~2026-33386-71 (talk) 20:34, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Matthew Moggridge

Circumstantially, it seems likely that these are the same person, but I would appreciate assistance in confirming so:

1. Matthew Moggridge (Q75872936): British botanist and archaeologist (1803-1882), spouse of Fanny Llewelyn Dillwyn (married 1836); father of Matthew Weston Moggridge (1838–1891) and John Traherne Moggridge (1842-1874; born in Swansea)
2. Matthew Moggridge (Q44497648) (published 1853; giving address as The Willows, Swansea)

Also, we have two birth years for the former; 1803 and 1811; which is correct? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:02, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

This obituary of Lewis Weston Dillwyn, the father of Fanny, says that he lived at Sketty Hall near Swansea and had an interest in zoology and natural history, so seems a likely acquaitance for the wigeon-watcher, but not absolute proof. Alansplodge (talk) 11:46, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

The county families of the United Kingdom (p. 687) has a birth date of 1803 for Matthew. Also the post-nominal letters "F.G.S." which I believe is Fellow of the Geological Society of London. Alansplodge (talk) 11:55, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

The Garden (July 1882) p. 106 has an obituary for Matthew. Although no mention of his book, it notes that he was "an enthusiastic naturalist". Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Proceedings of the Linnean Society of London (1882-83) p. 42 in another obituary for Matthew gives a a birth date of 16 July 1803 and a departure date of 14 July 1882. Also further details but none wigeon related. Alansplodge (talk) 12:18, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Bingo! A Google search result says that somewhere in THE SHERBORNE REGISTER - Fourth Edition - 1550-1950 it says; "Moggridge, John Traherne, son of M. Moggridge, The Willows, Swansea". Alansplodge (talk) 12:18, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

A better link here (p. 68) Alansplodge (talk) 12:20, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Thank you. Now merged. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:07, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Born at The Boyce, Dymock. Son of John Hodder Moggridge, and Sarah his wife, who was the daughter of Matthew Jefferys. General Register Office: Registers Of Births, Marriages And Deaths Surrendered To The Non-Parochial Registers Commissions Of 1837 And 1857. Archive reference TNA/RG/5/95, Piece description Certificate nos: G 2751-3000. Some kind of Non-conformist. Some more about Dymock, and The Boyce in the VCH. DuncanHill (talk) 19:51, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

John Hodder Moggridge was a mill owner in Bradford-on-Avon. DuncanHill (talk) 23:58, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

And "a leading Unitarian". Alansplodge (talk) 17:46, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

A psalm and Mount Ephraim

In the poem 'The Choir Master's Burial" by Thomas Hardy, the choirmaster is remembered as asking the church minstrels if:

We would with our lutes
Play over him
By his grave-brim
The psalm he liked best—
The one whose sense suits
“Mount Ephraim”—
And perhaps we should seem
To him, in Death’s dream,
Like the seraphim

Mount Ephraim is a hymn tune by Benjamin Milgrove (1731-1810). Which psalm (presumably in a metrical version) did the choirmaster mean? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:49, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

See split-leaf psalter. Many psalters of the period (and even some today) use this format, whereby a text is not associated with any specific tune, but the tunes are bound semi-separately so you can choose any tune that has the same metre as the text. (It can be rather awkward for the precentor, who must hold two pairs of pages open with one hand; my wife has learnt from some RPCI precentors to use rubber bands to bind the appropriate pages together temporarily.) This website shows me that the tune is short metre, and the Scottish Metrical Version (surprised we have no article about it) of the 17th century, which remained in active use at this period, included a few short-metre selections. Unfortunately the versions I can find online don't give indices by metre; I can answer you more fully this evening, when I'm home from work and can consult my copy of the 1979 RPCI psalter, which includes the full SMV.

Marginally related — no psalm happens to contain a reference to a mountain by this name, so the sense wouldn't be suited to the name of the tune. Here are all passages mentioning Ephraim, with quotations from the Book of psalms for singing (RPCNA, 1973):

• 60: My head's defense is Ephraim
• 78 (first reference): The sons of Ephraim were armed
• 78 (second reference): Then Joseph's tent rejected He,/On Ephraim would not count
• 80: Enthroned between the cherubim appear/To Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin
• 108: Yes, Ephraim defends My head

Note that 108's second half is a slightly modified 60, so this is functionally just three independent texts. Nyttend (talk) 00:00, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Mount Ephraim (mentioned, e.g., in 1 Kings 12:25) is a distinct entity from the tribe of Ephraim or its eponym, referenced in these psalms,  ​‑‑Lambiam 00:28, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

True. My point is that the tune name is clearly unrelated to the content; it's not as if the poet wanted some connection between the tune's name and the text; it's not like singing Psalm 124 to "Old 124th", or Psalm 48 to "Jerusalem". Nyttend (talk) 03:42, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

No specific text is known to be originally associated with the tune, thought to have been composed about 1769. At least 21 poems have been written to the meter of the tune, presumably specifically to produce a hymn.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:29, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

The sense of a psalm is unrelated to its having metre or not. Mount Ephraim is a competent hymn tune, yet, as far as hymn tunes go, IMO rather run-of-the-mill. (Listen on YouTube.)  ​‑‑Lambiam 00:05, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

It looks likely that the pasalm was from Tate and Brady. I've found Dodge, Alan (2009). "Thomas Hardy and Metrical Psalmody". The Thomas Hardy Journal. 25: 127–135. JSTOR 48568864. which says:

Mount Ephraim, written by Benjamin Milgrove (1713-1810), organist of the Countess of Huntingdon’s Chapel in Bath, is in short metre (6:6:8:6), and would not fit Psalm 90, nor the other more generally used funeral psalms, Psalm 39 and parts of Psalms 102 and 103. Of the 150 psalms in the Tate and Brady New Version, only six have this particular metre: numbers 25, 31, 51, 67, 130 and 142. Perhaps the most appropriate would be part of Psalm 25, of which verse 13 states, appropriately, ‘His quiet soul with peace/Shall be for ever bless’d.’ The tune Mount Ephraim was a favourite with Hardy, and is cited again the last line of ‘A Church Romance’

'A Church Romance' is the poem in which Hardy tells the story of his parents' meeting, his father played viol in the minstrels. Hardy's own copy of A Book of Common Prayer had a Tate and Brady psalter attached, in which he made some annotations, and another of his poems mentions "Singing one-voiced a Tate-and-Brady psalm". DuncanHill (talk) 00:43, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Curious, User:DuncanHill, how do you know that it's from Tate and Brady, versus some other source? Do you take this quote as implying that it was used, rather than other paraphrases, and instead of actual psalters? Nyttend (talk) 03:42, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

@Nyttend: I don't know it's from Tate and Brady, I said it looks likely that it is. The article I quoted says "Two metrical versions of the 150 psalms of the Old Testament had been virtually the only words sung in parish churches from a few years after the Reformation until the 1830s", and they were Sternhold and Hopkins and Tate and Brady. It goes on to say that "In Hardy’s own Book of Common Prayer (signed ‘Thomas Hardy, Easter 1861’), with Tate and Brady psalter attached, he made a number of pencil marks and annotations." So, Tate and Brady was the psalter used in most parish churches at the relevant time, we know Hardy possessed a copy, and we know he referred to it in his poetry. I'm not sure what you mean by "instead of actual psalters" - both the Old Version (Sternhold and Hopkins) and the New (Tate and Brady) are psalters. DuncanHill (talk) 09:09, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

One can tell from just the Psalm 34 quotation: "Through all the changing scenes of life", and "Approach, you piously disposed, and my instruction hear" from the next page over (in the external links, 1698 edition) are quite different from the actual text. Same with another text I went to at random, Psalm 101:7. Clearly it's merely a paraphrase, not a faithful translation. Nyttend (talk) 20:04, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

I don't see what that's got to do with anything in this thread though. DuncanHill (talk) 20:25, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

The choirmaster meant Psalm 137, specifically referencing the widely known metrical paraphrase "Your harps, ye trembling saints," written by Augustus Montague Toplady. ~2026-33106-46 (talk) 06:24, 5 June 2026 (UTC) ( Blocked sockpuppet)

@~2026-33106-46: I can see why he might see it as appropriate, but do you have a citation for it being the actual Psalm intended? DuncanHill (talk) 20:31, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Is there a source relating "Your harps, ye trembling saints" to Psalm 137? The metre of "Your harps, ye trembling saints" fits the tune, but how does the sense of Psalm 137 particularly suit the tune?  ​‑‑Lambiam 18:43, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Might a clue be hidden in "we should seem / To him, in Death’s dream, / Like the seraphim"? Is there a psalm involving lute-playing seraphim?  ​‑‑Lambiam 18:46, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

June 5

U.S. South being more religious than other regions

lta –fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 07:52, 9 June 2026 (UTC) The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Why is the U.S. South insanely more religious and conservative than the other regions in the United States? ~2026-33106-46 (talk) 00:15, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Check out Bible belt, perhaps the History section. In solidarity, Aaron Liu (talk) 00:23, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

See the First Great Awakening and Second Great Awakening from the 18th to the 19th centuries, which led to the dominance of evangelical Christianity in that region that weakened and disappeared elsewhere in the country over time but maintained their hold in that area for various reasons. The South remained more rural and slower to urbanize than other regions, which helped preserve traditions that lost influence in more industrialized areas. Immigration and cultural diversity were also slower and less influential than they were elsewhere, so cultural diffusion (on a large scale) didn't really occur until the late 20th century. Religious institutions became closely tied to the region's social order, including their defense of slavery, and later became part of Southern cultural identity. As a result, the region secularized more slowly than the rest of the country and still to this day preserves religious traditions and cultural practices that lost currency in the rest of the country and the modern world over the last several centuries. Viriditas (talk) 00:40, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

I tried searching religion for the city, which is more religious, either New Orleans, Atlanta, or Charlotte? How do they preserve the religious traditions, as of 2020s and do they read the Bible? ~2026-33106-46 (talk) 00:43, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Those questions are not easy to answer. To backup a bit, I've addressed several of the strange cultural artifacts in Southern culture that still attract attention today. One article I wrote, God the Original Segregationist, shows how the belief in segregation as a religious virtue didn't really end in the South until the late 20th century, with the Southern Baptist Convention only denouncing racism and apologizing for slavery in 1995, 130 years after slavery had been abolished. It isn't clear what you mean by "religious traditions", as these ebb and flow and change over time in many different ways, as religion in the South is connected to new religious movements in the United States. Answering "who is more religious" doesn't really mean anything, IMO, and there are several reasons for that. To illustrate there's an anecdote about people in Iran claiming to be religious when their government performs a survey, but when pollsters do it anonymously and the people don't face repercussions, it turns out it is something like less than half of the population. My personal opinion is that religion in the South is very much like that. It is used for social currency and community, with people compelled to say they are religious due to social consequences. This is well known. Viriditas (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Do we know how secularized America has been? ~2026-33106-46 (talk) 03:11, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

I feel, based on your questions, that it is important to note that religion in America is a personal choice. It is not mandated by society or law. There is no such thing as "secularized America" or "religious America". Each individual makes their own personal choice. Your questions are better posed about the influences that affect the choices people make. ~2026-16820-81 (talk) 12:58, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Really? I just quote Pete Hegseth: "America was founded as a Christian nation. It remains a Christian nation in our DNA if we can keep it. And as public officials, we have a sacred duty 250 years on to glorify Him." He also said: "At the War Department, we see ourselves as the Strength Department. But we also need to remember that we derive our strength through faith, and through truth, and through the word of God." That doesn't seem to be a personal choice. Neither are the books bans that are guided by these "Christian" beliefs or laws that exclude minorities, e. g. in the military. So let's face it - this is just ignorance of reality. That includes intolerance, inequality and corruption by so-called "Christians" who maybe read the bible but do not understand it.

For me as a European it is really astonishing how unchristian the USA has become. Just look at the dear leader - a man, that someone who really understands the bible would call an anti-christ (committed adultery, stole - cf. his charity scam, pictures himself as Jesus, i. e. heresy, cf. the first two commandments, pretends to be a christian by using the word god, cf. 3rd commandment, lies all the time and insults other people, cf. 9th commandment, his bragging about money, cf. Matthew 6:24; 19:24, mocks disabled people, sells bibles to earn more money and uses this holy book as a simple prop, doesn't apologise nor repents, says it's a terrible thing, when someone prays for him: "Even worse than offending the Founding Fathers, you are offending Americans of faith by continually saying "I pray for the President," when you know this statement is not true, unless it is meant in a negative sense. It is a terrible thing you are doing, but you will have to live with it, not I!" etc, etc.).--~2026-33415-46 (talk) 14:24, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Surveys routinely show that the American south is the least educated part of the country. This may not be a coincidence. As to the guy at the top, many folks who consider themselves Christian see him as a tool for imposing their views on everyone else, never mind his personal lack of any moral compass. So while he thinks he's using us, we are actually using him. Funny how that works out. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:40, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

It's like the serpent who "helped" mankind in Genesis 3. Maybe that's why Trump quotes Oscar Brown's "The Snake" so often because it exactly describes what he is and does. It is not just the irony that these people don't get it but also that he uses a civil rights activist's song while he dismantles these rights. Even if this guy was sent by god it was clearly not to help but to test the faith of Christians and lots of them miserably failed because they sold all their values to this "anti-"Christ.--~2026-33508-17 (talk) 18:26, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

So, this entire discourase on religion is just to say you hate Trump, correct? ~2026-21283-08 (talk) 18:57, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

In the first place, it's 'discourse', and in the second place, that was ~2026-33508-17's first contribution to the discussion to which five other posters had previously take part in. Exercise situational awareness. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 19:44, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

I, for one, don't hate Trump. On the contrary, I worship the quicksand he walks upon. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:50, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

It's weird how so many people who would consider themselves Christian, profess to hate DJT and can't wait to see a sniper finally get lucky. What part of Christianity is hating someone and wanting to see them murdered? On the other hand, it's weird how so many people who would consider themselves Christian, profess to see DJT as their Ultimate Role Model Sent by God to Save the World and Make America Great Again. Did someone mention extreme polarisation? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:23, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Both of those extremes kind of suggest how fragile civilization really is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:55, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Family of Thomas Carlyle

An edition of the letters of Thomas Carlyle was edited "by Charles Eliot Norton and Alexander Carlyle (husband of Carlyle's niece, Mary Carlyle Aitken)".

The latter is Mary Carlyle Aitken (Q140071213); and Alexander was her cousin as well as her husband. But who were his parents? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:46, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

"Probably the most able editor of the letters so far has been Alexander Carlyle, son of Carlyle's brother Alexander and husband of his first cousin Mary Aitken, Carlyle's niece and amanuensis" (Charles Richard Sanders and Kenneth J. Fielding (eds.) The Collected Letters of Thomas and Jane Welsh Carlyle, vol. 1 (Duke University Press, 1970), p. xx). Alexander Jr.'s mother was Janet "Jenny" Carlyle, née Clow; the father's dates were 1797–1876, the mother's 1809–1891 (ibid., p. 166). --Antiquary (talk) 17:31, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

(ec) :I think Thomas's brother Alexander, who emigrated to Ontario, and his wife Jennet or Janet. They certainly had a son called Alexander, and the Alexander who married Mary Aitken was from Ontario. Sending press notice of marriage. Edit conflicted, and I see Antiquary has done a better job. DuncanHill (talk) 17:43, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Thanks; both. Father now Alexander Carlyle (Q140072870) and son now Alexander Carlyle Jnr (Q140072877). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:06, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

It's very confusing since they reused Christian names so much in that family, but the elder Alexander Carlyle (1797–1876) was brother, not son, of the famous Thomas Carlyle. Their father was James Carlyle. --Antiquary (talk) 18:17, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Yes, I meant that the two Alexanders are father and son of each other. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:23, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

But your Wikidata page calls him a son of Thomas Carlyle (who had no children). Also your page ref for DOB and DOD should be p. 166. Also you need the volume number (1) since there are 41 volumes in that collected edition. --Antiquary (talk) 18:31, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Lapsus; now fixed, thank you.

The citation (if you click though) is to vol 1. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:44, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

So it is. And there was nothing to stop me making the other corrections myself, of course. --Antiquary (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

June 6

Spouse of Francis Ephraim Palgrave

I fear there has been conflation (on Wikidata and on The Peerage, and possibly on Wikipedia) of the wives (if indeed there was more than one) of Francis Ephriam Palgrave (né Cohen) (we have his dates as July 1788 – 6 July 1861)

The Peerage (not the most reliable of sources) says:

Francis Ephraim Palgrave was born in 1786. He married Dawson Turner. He married Elisabeth Hooker, daughter of William Jackson Hooker and Maria Turner.

We are not helped by there being multiple people called "Dawson Turner", some male and apparently one female.

Our article on Dawson Turner (18 October 1775 – 21 June 1858) lists three children called "Dawson Turner" - two died in childhood, the other has the middle name "William", and one Elizabeth, born 1799.

Our article on Francis Ephraim Palgrave says, unsourced:

Cohen converted to Anglican Christianity before his marriage to Elizabeth Turner on 13 October 1823... Around the time of his marriage, Cohen also changed his surname to "Palgrave" (his wife's mother's maiden name)

No other marriage by him is mentioned

Wikidata currently lists the same two spouses as The Peerage, with DoB 1799 for Dawson Turner.

What are the true facts?

Is the Dawson Turner listed by The Peerage at , along with four children who match those we attribute to Elizabeth Turner on the article about Francis Ephriam Palgrave, an hallucination? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:01, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

I have now updated Wikidata on the assumption that The Peerage is in error. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:24, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

I agree. The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography's article on Francis Ephraim Cohen only mentions one wife, Elizabeth (1799–1852), daughter of Dawson Turner, whom he married on 13 October 1823. It confirms everything you quote from our article on Palgrave. The original DNB also gives him only one wife, Elizabeth Turner. The Maria Turner mentioned above was another daughter of Dawson Turner, so The Peerage is representing Palgrave as having married his first wife's niece, which would be curious enough to ensure the ODNB mentioning it, surely? --Antiquary (talk) 12:28, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing and Antiquary: FWIW Elizabeth Hooker (1820-1898) married Dr Thomas Robert Evans (later Evans Lombe) (1821-1902) at Kew on 20 July 1853 (FamilySearch KHK2-R4Y with references to censuses, Find-a-Grave etc). The marriage was registered in Richmond, Surrey (GRO marriage 2a 277 (Q3 1853)). She is identified as Evans-Lombe, Elizabeth in the Correspondence of Charles Darwin, vol 20 and other vols. See also Lombe pedigree -- Jheald (talk) 19:37, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Until I checked your link, Andy Mabbett, I assumed you meant something like Burke's Peerage. As far as the one you linked, I wouldn't cite it at all, both because it's one guy's personal project (from the main page: The site is the result of around 17 years of work by one (somewhat eccentric) person collating information on the British Peers (and some European royals), and then entering it into a range of various genealogy programs), and because some pages, including the one you linked, cite Wikipedia. Nyttend (talk) 07:21, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I would not cite The Peerage in a Wikipedia article, and was not suggesting that it be cited.

It has been used, however, on Wikidata and it was those claims which I was seeking to validate or refute from other sources. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:38, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Z. usage in place of initial

I am working on David Owen Montague and one source (currently third in the reflist) references him as Z. Montague. I am relatively sure this is the same person based on the fourth reference, which affirms some of the details attributed to Z. Montague in the third source. Why would they refer to him as such? The only reasons that I can think of is to be used as a place holder, but the source uses both his middle and first name within, or that it is some archaic honorific like M. for mister. ✶Quxyz✶ (talk) 21:14, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

See here. ""David O. Montague of Davenport, Io., said, "My father's name was Zenas Montague of Vermont. He died in September 1810. The following winter my grandfather came up, and brought me and my elder sister to West Hampton, and that was my home until he died. At the age of twenty-one I went West, and have been there since, with the exception of my return to West Hampton nineteen years ago this fall." DuncanHill (talk) 21:20, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Why would a newspaper from 1938 refer to David with is father's initials then? ✶Quxyz✶ (talk) 21:28, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

On a semi-unrelated note, is that source reliable by Wikipedia's standards because, if so, I might use it to fill in some of David's genealogy. ✶Quxyz✶ (talk) 21:30, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

I don't know about the newspaper, I can't access it. The source I gave isn't what we could call a reliable source, but I think it would be a good place to find pointers for further research. DuncanHill (talk) 21:35, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

I can't access it either, but our article presently states that David Owen Montague was born of French parents, which is also stated in the article in the newspaper Bellevue Herald-Leader, currently ref [1]. The genealogy of Hissem Montague establishes that David's paternal

great-great-great-great-grandfather, Richard Montague, a multigenerational Englishman, sailed to New England before 1646, and that all generations leading up to David were born on American soil. So this newspaper is – at least in this respect – not a trustworthy source.  ​‑‑Lambiam 17:38, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Citations in the article should be accessible via the Wikipedia Library. I think the Herald-Leader's reliability shouldn't be invalidated as most of the facts within have been affirmed by other sources. Also, the genealogy source seems to be at least be a self-published, personal project so I would not necessarily put it ahead of a local source (that, according to an email has access to physical archives but I was ghosted after that affirmation). ✶Quxyz✶ (talk) 13:06, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

The original source of the quoted text is found here.  ​‑‑Lambiam 04:00, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

A better link is here. Alansplodge (talk) 21:25, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Sans Souci, Pinner, and Hermann Goering's sister

There is a house in Pinner called Sans Souci, after the famous palace in Potsdam. It was built for Joachim von Ribbentrop. I have seen online mentions that it was at some point occupied by a sister of Hermann Goering, and that she was interned at the beginning of the Second World War. So, do we know who the architect was, and do we know who Goering's sister was, and where and for how long she was interned? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:35, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

For the sister, it seems you have a choice of Paula Huber or Olga Rigele.  Card Zero  (talk) ※ 02:03, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I have grave suspicions about this internment story. An 800-page biography of Goering makes occasional references to Paula and Olga, likewise his sisters-in-law Ilse and Else, which seem to show they were all in the Reich during the Second World War. --Antiquary (talk) 10:38, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Waiting for the commission

The architect was German (as were the bricks), but his name doesn't seem to be known with certainty: "possibly Hans Grosswendt - the registered ownership was init[ia]lly in the name of H E Grosswendt". --Antiquary (talk) 11:13, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Pinner Observer - Thursday 05 September 1996 says "When Ribbentrop left England, Sans Souci was sold to the sister of Herman Goering the notorious head of the Gestapo. She committed suicide while interned on the Isle of Man." DuncanHill (talk) 12:08, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I'm not buying it. The Pinner Observer is, I'm convinced, the foremost authority on what's currently happening in Pinner, but I get a strong impression that this story and perhaps the whole Pinner/Hermann Goering connection in the 1930s is based on local gossip which, having had decades to reach its finest flowering, may not be a totally reliable source. The suicide of Goering's sister while interned on the Isle of Man should have left more trace in the historical record. --Antiquary (talk) 12:58, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

I agree. There's a lot of gossip/mythology around Ribbentrop's embassy period - notably the supposed swastika in a floor mosaic, and the grave of Hitler's dog - both supposedly in the old embassy, now the home of the Royal Society. The dog was Ribbentrop's, & the mosaic cannot be found. Johnbod (talk) 18:13, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Oh I'm rather inclined to agree too. Unfortunately it's been given a sort of official stamp, The Harrow Council "Conservation Area Appraisal and Management Strategy for Pinner Hill" says "When Von Ribbentrop returned to Germany in 1938, the house then passed to Hermann Goering’s sister and after her internment on the Isle of Man it was subsequently used as an RAF officers mess". It would be nice to find some sort of record of it not passing to Goering's sister, but proving negatives is always tricky. We are not helped by "Sans Souci" being a not uncommon name for a nice little place away from the city. DuncanHill (talk) 18:23, 7 June 2026 (UTC)

Oh! The dog was Giro, and he belonged to Leopold von Hoesch. DuncanHill (talk) 14:49, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

Ah, the preceding ambassador - I see "Giro died in 1934 after chewing through some electrical cable.." Johnbod (talk) 15:06, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

Since the Pinner Observer don't appear to know who Hermann Goering was - the notorious head of the Luftwaffe, not the Gestapo - I wouldn't put much trust in their coverage of his sister. Chuntuk (talk) 10:17, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

He was the minister who set up the Gestapo. The directors were Rudolf Diels (1933-1934), Reinhard Heydrich (1934-1939), and Heinrich Mueller (1939-1945). I am not aware of any of them having sisters interned on the Isle of Man. The responsible ministers after Goering were Heinrich Himmler and Wilhelm Frick, again I am not aware of any relevant sisters. DuncanHill (talk) 14:25, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

June 8

Context for School Begins, 1889

lta –fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 07:52, 9 June 2026 (UTC) The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Hello everyone, can you please describe the context of this photo?

This captions reads: "School Begins. Uncle Sam (to his new class in Civilization). Now, children, you've got to learn these lessons whether you want to or not! But just take a look at the class ahead of you, and remember that, in a little while, you will feel as glad to be here as they are!"

What is this cartoon about?

~2026-33778-68 (talk) 23:44, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

The reluctant pupils are labelled Phillipines, Hawaii, Porto Rico, and Cuba. The USA had recently taken the Phillipines, Porto Rico, and Cuba from Spain, and Hawaii from the Hawaiians. The blackboard says "The consent of the governed is a good thing in theory, but very rare in fact. England has governed her colonies whether they consented or not. By not waiting for their consent she had greatly advanced the world's civilization. The U.S. must govern its new territories with or without their consent until they can govern themselves".

"The class ahead" sit behind the new class, and are labelled Alaska, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and California, earlier acquisitions. A Native American in in the dunce's corner, a Chinese child is trying to come in (the "Yellow Peril"), and an African American child is washing the window.

It's portraying imperialism as lifting up "primitive" peoples. See The White Man's Burden. DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

@Clarityfiend @DuncanHill What about Alaska? ~2026-33778-68 (talk) 00:55, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

China isn't a "Yellow Peril" here, they are the next class. Also: That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, isn't our Declaration of Independence required reading for you brits? fiveby(zero) 01:44, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

Decidedly not. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 02:14, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

(ec) The cartoon was published in 1899. The previous year was good for the US. It won the Spanish–American War, acquiring Cuba, the Philippines and "Porto" Rico in the process, and annexed Hawai'i. This was a racist statement that it would soon "civilize" these new possessions like it had states like Alaska (obtained from Russia), California, Texas, Arizona and New Mexico (swiped from Mexico). Clarityfiend (talk) 00:10, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

The cartoon is presumably lampooning the racism of the Manifest Destiny supporters, not making a racist statement itself. (Meanwhile, the Philippines and Cuba, to name two, eventually did gain their independence, and it worked out splendidly.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:47, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

No, it was Puck supporting expansion and opposing the Anti-Imperialist League. Tho we might see the overall message as being satirical nowadays, it wasn't. fiveby(zero) 02:02, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

Whoever wrote that article needs to be reminded that Cleveland did not win in 1888. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:54, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs @~2026-27434-43 @Fiveby @DuncanHill @Clarityfiend Including the Navajo Nation as well as other Native American reservations? ~2026-33778-68 (talk) 03:18, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

June 9

Sacred places in Canada

lta –fifteen thousand two hundred twenty four (talk) 07:52, 9 June 2026 (UTC) The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

What are the sacred places in Canada? SpeedOfLight100 (talk) 05:31, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

That will depend entirely on different people's opinion of what you might mean by sacred, and we don't answer requests for opinions. I suggest you read Religion in Canada. Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:36, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

Montreal Forum and Maple Leaf Gardens? Clarityfiend (talk) 07:42, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

June 10

Combination ambulances & hearses in the USA

It seems that at least until the late 1970s, in the USA there was a particularily close connection between hearses and ambulances - not only over the same manufacturers, but also double usage with the very same cars. Now while this allows some obvious synergies, it also has obvious drawbacks. Why was this connection more stable in the USA than in other parts of the world? --KnightMove (talk) 17:59, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

The article Combination car (ambulance) offers some hints: an era when funeral homes offered emergency ambulance service in addition to their primary trade, especially in smaller towns and rural areas - was that US-specific? - often built on a Cadillac, decline due to federal regulations and a major downsizing of the passenger cars that were used.  Card Zero  (talk) ※ 18:53, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

I also see a conflict of interest.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:50, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

I always figured the vehicle could start a given situation as an ambulance and then finish as a hearse, as needed. Time saver. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:41, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

I heard an argument against that "conflict of interest" before. A funeral home director said that funeral services don't see "lost customers" because everyone will, at some point, be a customer for funeral services. It isn't like, for example, home sales. Some people never purchase a house. It is a choice. So, if you die today, tomorrow, or ten years from now, you are still a customer - just a future customer.

Then, she added to it the counter-argument. When someone dies, they don't pay for funeral services. They're dead. It is the living people who pay for it. The more living people there are, the more they tend to pay. So, if you get a customer when they are 20, they have their parents paying. If you get them when they are 80, they have children and grandchildren involved, which can greatly increase the total service price.

But, I agree that it is easier just to assume funeral service people want customers now, not later. ~2026-16820-81 (talk) 11:21, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

Families often invest in life insurance over the course of time, which helps to pay or fully pays the funeral cost. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:17, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

June 11

National Debt Office (UK)

Notwithstanding that National Debt Office redirects redirected to Swedish National Debt Office, the UK also had a service or department of that name, at least between 1877 and 1921 .

In 1898, George William Hervey, "Secretary and Comptroller-General, National Debt Office", was made a Companion of the Order of the Bath, so presumably it was of some import.

What was it, and what did it do? When did it end (or merge, and into what)? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:44, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

It's a bad redirect, if nothing else, judging by the incoming links. But that said, it is another name for the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt. DuncanHill (talk) 15:51, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

Thank you. I have made the redirect into a dab page. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:22, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

June 12

Anyone who isn't confused here doesn't really understand what is going on

I've always understood this quotation to have originated in Belfast at the height of the Troubles. I went to look it up today and find that as well as being ascribed to (variations on) "a Belfast citizen", it (or a slight variation on it) is also ascribed to Ed Murrow, the American broadcaster, possibly about Vietnam. Wikiquote has it "Anyone who isn't confused doesn't really understand the situation" and says: "As quoted in The Improbable Irish (1969) by Walter Bryan". So - can we find a definitive source for it? I rather suspect it's an idea that floats around looking for any appropriate situation and lands on a likely person. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:41, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

In the congressional record, July 1965: “Anybody who isn’t confused by the Vietnam situation isn’t informed,” says Dr. Ray Smith, Jr.

Earlier than that: when the situation itself is confused, the newspaper reader who is not confused is a reader who is misinformed. Gerald W. Johnson (writer), writing in 1950 about the New York Times. If you like, there's also here a conceptually similar sentence about being confused by the Great Depression, 1938, but it's 80 words long.  Card Zero  (talk) ※ 16:28, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

DuncanHill, in American usage, that American name you mentioned is Edward R. Murrow, with the middle initial almost always included. I am 74, and I have very rarely heard his name shortened to "Ed" although that was a teenage nickname. Cullen328 (talk) 08:41, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

@Cullen328: In Britain he's pretty much universally known as Ed Murrow - I was surprised that his article was at another title. When he died the British government said "The friends of Ed Murrow are to be found in all walks of British life. They will remember a remarkable man who was a unique friend of this country. He was an American who identified himself with Britain when our fortunes were at their lowest and he understood with great clarity the power of the medium of communication that he served." Malcolm Muggeridge called him Ed when interviewing him. But even some Americans called, or call, him Ed. Adlai Stevenson said "Ed Murrow served the cause of truth gallantly, even as he served his fellow countrymen and his government." and the International Churchill Society (an American organisation) have a page called “This…is London”: Ed Murrow’s Churchill Experience An Anglo-American Friendship. DuncanHill (talk) 13:49, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

I heard Ethel merman in broken German/while Ute lempered back/and though accounts were thorough/did Edward R murrow/before he jumped the track? Sorry, not relevant to the discussion, just a song that played in my head when I saw the above, and now it's playing in yours. --Trovatore (talk) 18:25, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

Could be a riff on Niels Bohr's admonition "[t]hose who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it"? That seems to be from 1952. --Trovatore (talk) 18:13, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

Speech as an academic subject

According to our article Ed Murrow, he "majored in speech" at Washington State College. I understand the American idea of majoring in something, but what is "speech" as an academic subject? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:56, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Most likely that would be termed a "Communications" major nowadays. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:17, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

DuncanHill. History of Speech Communication and Communication Studies at Utah State University 1890-2000 (p. 70 or 83/158 of the pdf) describes the content of the 1931 "speech major program" at the the University of Utah. Alansplodge (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

I took a communications class once. It was super fun. We studied the principles of oral and written communication for a semester. For a final project we had the freedom to come up with any topic we wanted and then were graded on our presentation and ability to persuade the class. I later learned this was a business course that prepared people for management consulting. Viriditas (talk) 17:35, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Meaning of this paragraph?

Hi!! Could I have some help interpreting what this reviewer is saying? In The Times Literary Supplement, a critic discusses George III in the context of Alan Lloyd's The Wickedest Age and Stanley Ayling's George III. They write:

One consequence of piety and devotion must be stressed; It is that they sometimes create a barrier between those who practise them and the ordinary run of humanity. Here Alan Lloyd's book, The Wickedest Age, is in point. While the pre-eminence of Mr Ayling's book is unaffected by the presence of a lighter and not always water-tight vessel, that vessel gives the reader a voyage over the darker waters of English life.

The text comes from page 5 of this document from the internet archive. There are just a few things that are really throwing me off, but if it was life or death I'd say that the reviewer reckons Lloyd's book covers the "barrier" (the vessel?) that was created due to George III's piousness and devotion (the vessel?) while Ayling's omits it?

What does this paragraph mean? What is the vessel? JordyGrey _talk🧸 12:48, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Lloyd's book is the "lighter and not always water-tight vessel". It looks at the "darker waters of English life". Ayling's looks at the piety of the King. DuncanHill (talk) 13:27, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Okay... so not very helpful as a quote for a review of The Wickedest Age. Can you see anywhere in that page where the reviewer actually makes a judgement of Lloyd's book? JordyGrey _talk🧸 13:43, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Because that was the only time I could even see it mentioned :( JordyGrey _talk🧸 13:43, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Well, he is judging Lloyd's book to the extent of saying that it is 'lighter' (presumably meaning less dry and academic) than Ayling's, is 'not always watertight' (implying I suppose some deficiencies of fact or argument), and emphasises 'the darker waters of English life', but I agree that these observations, taken out of the review's overall context, are not very useful as quotes (and Wikipedia, of course, could not take into account my paranthetical speculative interpretations), although they might help a reader of the review to decide which of the two books to purchase. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 14:21, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

The voyage over the darker waters is one of the good things the reviewer says about Lloyd's book. It reminds us of the contrast between the King and his subjects. You should buy both books, as they look at the age in different ways and to different ends. DuncanHill (talk) 14:31, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

So maybe I can put a sentence together? Maybe "The Wickedest Age was directly compared to Stanley Ayling's George the Third by The Times Literary Supplement: Lloyd's book was described as 'a lighter and not always water-tight vessel, that ... [unlike Ayling's,] gives the reader a voyage over the darker waters of English life.'"

That still feels a bit random out of context, but if that source was going to be used in any way, this feels like it. JordyGrey _talk🧸 15:17, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

@DuncanHill sorry, not sure if you saw this? Would I be ok to write something like the above paragraph or would it be better to leave that review out entirely? JordyGrey _talk🧸 01:34, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

@JordyGrey: I think that's a fair summary. Go for it. DuncanHill (talk) 01:36, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

Wife of John Edward Mosley

Another one where The Peerage conflicts with other sources.

Wikidata (citing only The Peerage) says John Edward Mosley (Q76135935): (1795-1862) (a relative of the Wedgwood-Darwin family) married "Sophia Anne Paget, daughter of William Paget" in 1824; the Darwin Correspondence Project has him marrying "Caroline Sophia Paget" (1790–1853; daughter of John and Jane Paget of Kilmersdon, Somerset) in the same year , citing records via Ancestry.com. Can anyone verify, please?

Did Sophia Anne Paget exist, or is that identity a conflation of others? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:03, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Burke's Commoners, forerunner of their Landed Gentry, has her name as Caroline-Sophia, daughter of John and Jane. --Antiquary (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Oo, ah, but Burke's Peerage goes with Sophia Anne, daughter of William, so nothing is settled yet. --Antiquary (talk) 15:37, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

But Caroline Sophia Mosley's obituary in The Gentleman's Magazine gives her that name and calls her daughter of John and Jane Paget. Granted that such a source might get her parents' names wrong it could hardly have mistaken hers. --Antiquary (talk) 15:49, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

And finally, there's a contemporary notice of the 1824 marriage here which confirms she's Jane Caroline Sophia daughter of John Paget. --Antiquary (talk) 16:09, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Indexed records at FamilySearch also support that the couple married on 20 May 1824 were John Edward Mosley and Caroline Sophia Paget.

The Burke's Peerage reference above says that the supposed William Paget was of "Newberry House, Somerset". But the 1879 Burke's LG gives Newberry House as a seat of John Paget, husband of Jane, in fact it was "where he principally resided" and where he died in 1825.

The only Sophia Paget that I can see on FamilySearch, born or married in the right period, with a father William Paget, was LZPT-V7V born in Birmingham in 1802 who married a Samuel Spencer in 1823. They don't seem to be connections of the family you're looking at, so are probably irrelevant. That's not to say there might not have been a Sophia Paget who's not on FamilySearch, because coverage of the church records pre-1837 can be patchy; but they still most likely would not be associated with Newberry House. Jheald (talk) 17:24, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Thank you, all. Now corrected and clarified on Wikidata. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:35, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

Permanent arm ornaments

These

On the obscure barrel armband artifact from the bronze age Hallstatt culture, the book The Celtic World says In some cases it is clear that they cannot have been removed during life. This information is now in arm ring as Some were constructed so that it would have been impossible to remove them, but does that rewording match what was originally being said? How might it have been "clear that they cannot have been removed during life"? Could any form of construction be such that they can be put on, but not taken off? (What are they, Chinese finger traps?) Is the implication in fact that one grows into the armband until it's unremovable, or does "cannot" perhaps mean "were not"?  Card Zero  (talk) ※ 22:58, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

They're made of bronze or lignite (not that rare isotope of unobtainium called unremovablewhilealivium), so I'm guessing the author meant they don't show signs of being cut open. Certainly there is no way to guarantee they were lifelong adornments, and the rephrased version makes an unjustifiable claim. The wearer could have gone on a diet, voluntary or involuntary, such that it could slip off; or an unfriendly passing Viking or accident might have caused a (survivable) amputation. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:53, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

Mmm, OK. I'll probably change it to "some were apparently never removed".  Card Zero  (talk) ※ 01:13, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

Perhaps they were never put on during life.  ​‑‑Lambiam 04:02, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

Skeptical armband: You're putting me on. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:33, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

June 13

Son(s) of Frederick Lukis

Frederick Corbin Lukis (1788–1871), our article says, "had three daughters and six sons". Wikidata lists all nine at Frederick Lukis (Q15994597).

One of them is given as Frederick Corbin Lukis (died 1878—no DoB listed), spouse of Amelia Collings (Q76277425) (m. 1843), father of Laura Amelia Lukis (Q76277426) (no dates given). Largely sourced from The Peerage .

The Darwin Correspondence Project has Frederick Collings Lukis (1814/15–63), parentage not listed.

'Shellers From the Past and the Present' has an entry on "Lukis, Frederick Corbin" (Lt. Colonel; (1788–1871). It includes:

...However, Jeffreys must have referred not to the father, but to his eldest son, Dr. Frederick Collings Lukis, 1814-1863 (died from a lung decease he had suffered from during some years after just having become 48 years old, possibly tbc), who became a surgeon, and was like his father very interested in natural history and helped his father also in his archeological work, because Jeffreys 1863, when treating Abra tenuis, says "... the late Dr. Lukis, who favoured me with a description and a sketch in October 1859 ..." . The younger Dr. Lukis was a very good friend of Jeffreys and was said to be the best conchologist of the Channel Islands during this time. Jeffreys, however, continued his correspondence with the family through F.C. Lukis sr., until the old man died.

So was the son Frederick Collings Lukis (1814/15–63)? And if so, who was Frederick Corbin Lukis (died 1878)?

"Jeffreys 1863" is here: . Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:07, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

June 14

Did James IV have a beard

All the pictures of James IV in the article about him show him clean shaven. The quote in James_IV#Culture_and_patronage states: He never cuts his hair or his beard. It becomes him very well. So, did he have a beard? --Lexiconaut (talk) 04:15, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

The pictures of him on wikimedia also show him without a beard. c:Category:James IV of Scotland --Lexiconaut (talk) 04:24, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

"The king's beard did not, however, last; on 9 August 1503, the day after his marriage to Margaret Tudor, James had his beard 'clippit' by the Countess of Surrey and her daughter at the exorbitant cost of £180 Scots, and duly appears clean-shaven in all his portraits." I've always found being shaven by countesses is worth the extra money though. --Antiquary (talk) 08:49, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

Nice find! (the article has the date of marriage celebration as 8 August, but what's a day between friends) --Lexiconaut (talk) 18:16, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

Yes, celebration = getting married, and the next day he had his beard taken off. More importantly, in Margaret Tudor's portrait, does she have a common marmoset? Europeans didn't land in Brazil until 1500, so she's an early adopter.  Card Zero  (talk) ※ 19:21, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

One wonders if she craunched it. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 13:57, 15 June 2026 (UTC)

Or was she cranched at the time? --Trovatore (talk) 19:21, 15 June 2026 (UTC)

This is actually mentioned in the article on the Countess of Surrey in question: Agnes Howard, Duchess of Norfolk. (She was Countess of Surrey at the time; she did not become Duchess of Norfolk until her husband was restored to that title in 1514.) "Agnes Howard, and her step-daughter Muriel, Lady Gray, clipped the Scottish king's beard on 9 August 1503, and he gave her a length of cloth-of-gold." (The name of the daughter is incorrect, however: she was in fact Muriel Grey (not Gray), Viscountess Lisle, the wife (soon-to-be widow) of John Grey, 2nd Viscount Lisle. She was one of the then-Earl of Surrey's daughters by his first marriage.) Proteus (Talk) 09:33, 15 June 2026 (UTC)

June 15

Children of Samuel & Lucy Galton

Our article on Samuel Galton Jr. says (sources and trivia excised; numbering added):

Galton married Lucy Barclay (1757–1817), the daughter of Robert Barclay Allardice, MP, 5th of Ury. They would go on to have eight children together.

1. His first born was Mary Anne Galton (1778–1856)
2. Galton's second child was Sophia Galton who would go on to marry Charles Brewin.
3. His first son, Samuel Tertius Galton (1783–1844)
4. Galton had another son, Theodore Galton (1784–1810), although not much is known about him.
5. His next child was Adele Galton (1784–1869) who would go on to marry John Kaye Booth, MD, in 1827
6. Next would come Hubert John Barclay Galton (1789–1864)
7. followed by Ewen Cameron Galton (1791–1800) who died at the age of 9
8. His last child was John Howard Galton who married Isabelle Strutt. They had a son named Douglas Galton (1822–1899)

Yet , citing "England & Wales, Quaker birth, marriage, and death registers, 1578–1837 (Ancestry.com, accessed 16 October 2017", lists:

Priscilla Galton - 1781–4 - Daughter of Samuel and Lucy Galton.

Have we miscounted, and overlooked her? Can someone check the latter source, please?

Can we source dates for Sophia and John Howard? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:43, 15 June 2026 (UTC)

A thought: Priscilla could have been as young as 2 years and 1 day when she died, and no older than 3 less 1 day; perhaps the records of the time simply omitted her. Is the total of 8 children actually quoted in a source, or was it arrived at by counting the children we have other records of?

Quakers did not baptise, so their children were not entered in Baptismal records, they kept their own. Nor were they usually buried in consecrated churchyards that kept official burial records. If a small child died, of an infectious disease, say, and was buried hurridly in private ground, the family might forget (or 'forget') to make any official record of the death, which cost money (3d at this time, equivalent to up to £10 today) to register. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 04:27, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

You mean no older than 4 less one day. The Life, Letters and Labours of Francis Galton gives us John Howard Galton (1794–1862) and Sophia Galton (1782–1863), but it doesn't appear to mention Priscilla. --Antiquary (talk) 09:25, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Yes, you're right and I miscounted. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 16:32, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

You idiot, it mentions her here. --Antiquary (talk) 12:32, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

June 16

The Piraeus

Why and when did The Piraeus stop being "the" and become just Piraeus? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 09:34, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

One angle of attack: Looking at Google's n-gram viewer and comparing some representative phrases ("in the Piraeus" vs "in Piraeus"; "from the Piraeus" vs "from Piraeus") suggests the no-The form took off circa 1910-1915 and has been in ascendancy ever since.

By the same method, "Ukraine" took over from "The Ukraine" very abruptly in 1988-1990, which sounds about right. ~2026-35237-61 (talk) 10:31, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

"The Ukraine" meant "the borderland", and once they were free (sort of) from Russia the "the" part lost favor. "Piraeus" as a word seems to have an embedded "the", so another question was why it was ever called "the Piraeus" in English. Of course, we do have redundancies like that in English, for example the ball club called the Los Angeles Angels is literally "the the Angels Angels". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:13, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

There is no embedded article in "Piraeus". However, in Greek it has always been used with the article, (ὁ Πειραιεύς in ancient Greek), so "the Piraeus" is just a literal take-over of Greek usage. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:59, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

I had googled the name and it said "The Greek word Piraeus (Πειραιάς) translates to 'the place over the passage' or 'ferryman.'" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:57, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

That's nice, but there's still no embedded article. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:01, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Good point. More like "implied" article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:03, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

No. The article is ὁ. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:22, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Was it ever called "The Piraeus" in Greek? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:18, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Yes, and as far as I know it still is. See my first response above. --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:21, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Conversely, the Ukrainian and Russian languages do not have articles at all, whether definite or indefinite. Specificity is expressed via context. So, the "the" in "the Ukraine" was always an English invention. Or perhaps it was a calque from the French form, "l'Ukraine", as French was widely spoken in the upper echelons back in the day, sometimes almost to the exclusion of Russian itself. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:21, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

In Greek, toponyms, like most proper nouns, tend to be used with a definite article. The Greek title of the song "Never on Sunday" is "Τα Παιδιά του Πειραιά", translated literally, word by word, "The Children of the Piraeus". Etymologically, the name is said to have meant something like "[the place] beyond [the passage]". But the vagaries of the development of a language tend to defy logical analysis. In English we use the definite article for the names of rivers and seas, but not for canals, straits and lakes rivers, canals, straits and seas, but not for lakes. Go figure. The question is perhaps, why was Piraeus "the Piraeus" before 1910–1915?  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:02, 16 June 2026 (UTC) [fixed 21:05, 16 June 2026 (UTC)]

Lakes, yes, it's always "Lake Titicaca", "Lake Champlain", etc., but canals and straits? Examples?  Card Zero  (talk) ※ 16:48, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

"The Corinth canal", "the Straight of Hormuz" etc. Alansplodge (talk) 16:54, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Er ... those examples have definite articles, same as "The Coral Sea" or "The River Niger".  Card Zero  (talk) ※ 17:09, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Yes, in reply to Card Zero's assertion above (now amended). Alansplodge (talk) 21:24, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Is the rank of amid a general?

Or rather, is it closer to an American brigadier general or to a British brigadier? The rank insignia of an amid in most modern Arabic nations' armies display three stars, making it look like a senior colonel and not like a general. (The insignia of a liwa typically feature crossed swords, as if it was the first in the line of general ranks.) ~2026-29827-50 (talk) 11:52, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

See Comparative army officer ranks of Arabophone countries which compares amid with the Francophone Général de brigade.

Also General officer#Arab system which says: amid - etymologically, translates as "colonel" but equivalent to brigadier/brigade general.

Alansplodge (talk) 16:45, 16 June 2026 (UTC)