User talk:Hesperian/Archive 27

The following text is preserved as an archive of discussions at User talk:Hesperian. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on User talk:Hesperian. No further edits should be made to this page.

From Stan Rogalski - Re: continued/Multiple deletion of my Song Lyrics: "Moondyne Joe: The Legend"

Hi Hesperian,

Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that my contribution of song lyrics to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moondyne_Joe Wiki page has been removed twice, by Hesperian.

Can you please advise why my original song lyrics contribution has been deleted twice, even after I expressly gave my authorisation for them to be on the page?

Is this page exclusively owned by/for Hesperian? Has Hesperian paid money to own this page, or is this a public contributors page???

Seeing that I am a new member of Wiki, maybe I don't know how things operate here, and I'm sure that there is a simple explanation that can be provided for the action that has been taken.

I am following the Wiki guidelines to contact the user responsible for the deletion before contacting Wiki to make some sense out of the action to delete my contribution, that at the moment makes no sense whatsoever.

Kind regards,

Stan Rogalski —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stanrogalski (talk • contribs) 13:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC) rics

Sorry for butting in, I had a look at the situation. For the lyrics to be included in the article they need to be consider of note even then we would only have an excerpt of them not the complete song. We also have a specific policy as to how to ascertain the notability of lyrics at notability(music). You also raised the issue of ownership nobody owns articles, content is based on policies and when discussing issues everybody is expected to be civil and assume good faith. Gnangarra 18:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry for making your time here frustrating; I should have been more welcoming, I'm sure. But we are trying to write an encyclopedia, and we must take care that material added to articles improves the articles from an encyclopedic point of view. For that reason, we don't welcome vast galleries of images - because even though the images might be fantastic, including a vast gallery of them usually doesn't improve the article - instead we place them over at our sister project, the Wikimedia Commons, and link to them from the articles. Similarly, we generally don't include original sources, such as poems or documents, unless they serve a clear encyclopedic purpose. Instead we put them over at our sister project Wikisource, and link to them from here.

In the case of your lyrics, I adjudge that it doesn't serve an encyclopedic purpose to include them here, because the song isn't a verifiably notable part of the Moondyne Joe story. In fact, some of the other poetry included there should also be removed for the same reason, but at least the others are historical.

Hesperian 01:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou for your reply. I stand enlightened. Kind regards Stan Rogalski —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.213.227 (talk) 02:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

An unspecific "well said"--intentionally vague to avoid inflaming an ongoing situation

Moonriddengirl ^(talk) has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Gawd

George seddon vanity issue made me wonder what hasnt changed after weeks off. happy new year, may it serve you well and best wishes on your tenacity in this strange hole in the ground :| SatuSuro 07:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

thanx

Thanks to you; my great ideas for redlinks turn out to be blue - thanks to you. Did you notice the new conservation status p'ram? He did a nice job, I have already started using it. What prompted griffithi? Rippey, Elizabeth (2004) [1995]. Coastal plants: Perth and the south-west region (2nd ed. ed.). Perth: University of Western Australia Press. pp. 244, 246, 249. ISBN 1 920694 05 6. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) which you should have a look at, it is charming. I notice you used one of my quirky images somewhere recently, you may be interested in this one. You might also notice a new cat around, would you mind having a look? I have been ordering it by lower case, but I coud not find a precedent or policy for that. Oh, and have a safe and prosperous one. cygnis insignis 08:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

No I don't, but know my library has a copy which I've borrowed once. I didn't recall the 1631 Grootenbroeck expedition to Australia (must have skipped that chapter) but did know of an earlier encounter it had with pirates off Sierra Leone. I'll need to get it out again. Early Days has some amazing material if you can ever find what you need. And wow!, great detective work. —Moondyne 14:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The loosely related story is, we went up to Moore River today and stood in the lookout which has a plaque describing the De Vergulde Draeck and a few other wrecks in the vicinity. I was trying to recall details for the family but failed miserably. —Moondyne 14:10, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Ebay has a copy for $30. —Moondyne 14:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

happy Mango season

'TIS MANGO SEASON....
Have a shlice of mango cheek...well, I am up to my armpits in the things. Yuletide means lots and lots of mangos, as well as turkey and ham and ice-cream and pressies. Were on special so I bought 3 crates for AU$20 and now I have both crispers in the refrigerator full and even with everyone eating two of the ##$@& things every mealtime... I am a bit mangoed out so I thought I'd spread the goodwill around....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Mate

• Yes thanks Hesperian - I have noted my error on Bruny Island. Cheers. --VS ^talk 11:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

What you just wrote couldn't be better stated - but I didn't want to say words to same effect first in case anyone thought I was being uppity! Cheers again. --VS ^talk 11:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I have left a message on VS's talk page on the disambiguation issue you may be interested in. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 00:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Naming convention discussion

Please feel free to continue this on my page until we find a better location. Perhaps we can spark interest enough for a re-think?--VS ^talk 02:05, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Hesperian, I have now moved this discussion and titled it Naming convention (places) - renewed discussion - towards a single convention to here and have advertised same at WP:AWNB so as to invite all editors to provide their input. It will be interesting to see what interest is shown. Perhaps we may get to a single convention this time?--VS ^talk 10:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Happy New Year

Dear Hesperian, I hope you had a wonderful New Year's Day, and that 2008 brings further success, health and happiness! ...and birds... and plants... and further green and gold nationalist conquests ;).... ~ Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Frameless vs. Thumb

Quite right!! Frameless looks much better. Thanks for the tip. Rotational (talk) 06:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you - that's a striking improvement. Rotational (talk) 07:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Uluru

Hey Hesperian. Regarding the use of the Uluṟu name in the article, this was done for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that the Australian government almost universally uses this spelling when referring to the location. The gazetteer seems to be the exception rather than the rule, which I admit is unusual. I can live with it being called Uluru in the article, even though I disagree, but you also changed the references back to Uluru, which in many, if not all, cases was improper. Anyway, just letting you know what's going on. — Huntster (talk • email • contribs) 15:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Banksia

Some of them appear not to be (for example Ashby's Banksia and Albany Banksia} which is what made me think of it. Or so it appears given they have otherwise blank talk pages. I notice that Banksia 'Birthday Candles' has an Australian importance tag within the WP Banksia box - I assume this is what you mean and this indicates it is in WP:AUS? Euryalus (talk) 11:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see the mistake. Was led astray by the redirects - that will teach me to do wikignoming good deeds without watching very carefully. My apologies. Euryalus (talk) 11:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Umm, no. Tagging is an often pointless task at the best of times, I'm certainly not going to spend half an hour tagging a bunch of redirects and articles already in the right Wikiprojects just so I can go back later and revert them all. But thanks for the offer :) Euryalus (talk) 11:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the tags have some merit - I discovered the existence of WP:AUS from a tagged article. They also encourage people to approach the relevant Wikiproject if they have questions with an article, and they encourage people to contribute to otherwise forgotten articles by checking the stub or unassessed list on the WP page. But this is not telling you anything you didn't already know. It's also easy to go overboard - some articles seem to be members of 6 or 8 Wikiprojects and completely ignored by them all. I do tagging late at night when I don't have the brainpower for actually writing anything - I agree its a marginal activity most of the time. Euryalus (talk) 01:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

hmmm tagger from the deep dark past saw this conversation - hmmm i reserve further comment at this point :| SatuSuro 12:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

greetings from the highest concentration of 24 hour convenience stores, 24 hour internet locations, and backpacker and hotel locations in oztryliea -(south george street sydnieay just a scream from central rail station) its aboslutely weird compared to when i used to live here much earlier in my lifetime - as for da tagging i agree with the comment about the start class - i think it should be broken up into sub project cats to surivive as useful tool SatuSuro 13:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep, break up the class categories, but retain the overarching project, because we still need the ability to apply tags that advertise a broad general project, instead of the most specifically relevant one ;-) Hesperian 04:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Template:ISSN search link

Can't figure out by myself how to change it back (I'm unused to dealing with templates, I fear) but since Worldcat has been back up for some time now and the original reason for replacing the opac.de with the Worldcat one remains valid, might I request assistance changing the target of the ISSN Search link template back? Thank you Schissel | Sound the Note! 06:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm an admin (just an obviously unskilled one though as I think I mention on my user page, not a new one. ... Annoyed only with myself, here.) and the protection wasn't the issue- I agree wholeheartedly it should remain in place. I just could not work out how to get it to work after substituting this, for that, for that, for the other thing, for ... (in preview, that is). Schissel | Sound the Note! 14:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

And since I have put the cart 'fore horse: thanks! Schissel | Sound the Note! 14:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Barton River

Thanks for correcting my error in delinking the Barton River. I was amazed to find that there was another one in Australia. Sorry if I caused you any problem. Student7 (talk) 01:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Good one

Where did you get it from? (westmail1897frontpage) SatuSuro 01:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

WOW, certainly more than brilliant that find - that is absoluterly worth gushing about that is - what a find! well done! SatuSuro 06:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

oops on the south afrcian working german - at least a speedy try on that can go jump :| SatuSuro 12:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

yeah the big rpobelm is tyring nto ot inlsut hte diotsi, at least i always i assume that im just as much one as they are :( SatuSuro 12:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

An admirable sentiment. I'm afraid in situations like this I am vulnerable to the sin of arrogance. Hesperian 12:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

wandering the streets of sydney and remembering my visions of the world of xx years ago and looking again has given me a good sense of the levels of cydioi i had at the time :) SatuSuro 12:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Category cleanups etc.

Thanks for cleaning up the dustbin issues over at the Stylidiaceae categories! Ever have one of those "I can't choose between the items on my to do list" attacks? I opted to dig in to continuing on the path of creating Utricularia stubs. I plan to get around to Stylidium again one of these days.

Oh, I also meant to ask you. Now that things have settled down over at User talk:CarolSpears - should we attempt to tackle the issue again with her and convince her of the appropriate guidelines, etc. or just assume consensus from previous discussion and integrate those quotes into prose text and move them away from above the lead? I was letting things cool off before doing anything but I'm not sure how to proceed given sufficient time. I doubt she'll respond positively to someone hacking away at her articles without notice, but I wonder if further discussion would be productive. Your input and objective opinion would be appreciated, when you get the chance. Hope all is well on your side of the world; Would you like me to send you some snow? Project high temp tomorrow of -9°C. Brrr! Best, Rkitko ^(talk) 05:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Was just logging off as your message came through; sorry, I'll have to reply properly later. Hesperian 05:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

No worries. Take your time :-) I'm in no rush. Lots of other things to do! Rkitko ^(talk) 20:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Some of those quotes were deliberately disruptive, and should be rolled back without so much as a how'd'y'do. As for the others, I shall leave it in your capable hands to establish and carry out consensus. It suffices to figure out what consensus is, and implement it. You're under no obligation to convince Carol that the consensus is good and wise and just, and frankly I don't think that would be possible, so why waste time trying.

I'm not convinced that the need for administrative intervention to protect the encyclopedia has entirely passed, and as you know, it is forbidden to take administrative action against someone with whom you are in editorial dispute. Therefore I shall abstain from involving myself in the editorial discussion. I'll keep half an eye out for further disruption. If I miss it, feel free to let me know.

Golly, that's cold. The weather's reasonably nice here at the moment: 19-33°C today and tomorrow. The forecast for Thursday through Sunday is 22–38°C, which is starting to get a bit uncomfortable. But it's a low humidity heat, and it comes with the Fremantle Doctor, so it isn't as bad as it sounds. Hesperian 04:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate the input and that's pretty much what I was thinking, too. I'll take the time to clean up those articles today. Thanks for linking to the Fremantle Doctor article; interesting reading. It just makes me want to visit Perth more, if not for the sole reason that you've got all those beautiful Stylidium and other carnivorous plants right near by. I would attend the 2008 International Carnivorous Plant Society's meeting in Sydney if airline tickets weren't so expensive.

What I wouldn't give for 19°C right now! Today is supposed to reach as high as -5°C. Have I mentioned I loathe winter? At least we haven't had many Nor'easters this year (so far). --Rkitko ^(talk) 13:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Category: Malvales of Australia

[This] might be of help. (But it's not necessarily complete for Queensland; the only recent full Queensland list, TTOBMK, is only available in dead tree version.) Lavateraguy (talk) 14:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Like trying to make a meal of a single pea

If you could spare a few minutes from your patrol/enforcement tasks -- I am lacking images and words and all of the other things that combine to equal comprehension; it might be an indication of how challenged I am mentally -- do take that into account. If you could find a few minutes to articulate exactly what it is you are protecting the encyclopedia from, I would, with gratitude, give this expression an audience.

Thank you -- carol 19:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

“ There was once a poor farmer who could afford to own just one horse. He cared well for the animal, but one summer night, it escaped through a weak fence and ran away.

When his neighbors discovered what had happened, they visited to offer their condolences. "What bad luck!" they exclaimed. The farmer replied, "Maybe. Maybe not."

A week later, the fugitive horse sauntered back to the homestead, accompanied by six wild horses. The farmer and his son managed to corral all of them. Again the neighbors descended. "What great luck!" they exclaimed. "Maybe," the farmer replied. "Maybe not."

” — From an old Taoist tale, Rob Brezsny, Cancer

Reference

Good morning -- carol 09:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Gastropods of Australia, and an invitation

Hi Hesperian, Nice to see you contributing on gastropods. I just wanted to ask if your category was for marine gastropods only? If so it would be good to have that in the title.

Also:

I've noticed your edits on pages relating to Gastropods; perhaps you'd be interested in joining WikiProject Gastropods? If you would like more information, please visit the project page or the project talk page.

best to you, Invertzoo (talk) 18:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Good day to you too Hesperian, from a bright and sunny (but temps well below freezing) New York City. Nice to hear from you. Thanks for the info, and thanks for the category, which is handy to have. There will be marine, terrestrial and freshwater gastropods in it no doubt, but it is perfectly fine for all three kinds to be in the same category. No problem. I didn't really imagine you would want to join project gastropods, but it doesn't hurt to ask... Best to you, and all good wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Turtle Dove Shoal

Nice. I love it how you can turn out something like that in a single edit and can bring yourself to not go back and have a fiddle. I try but always fail. You're my role-model and this is my new personal goal. —Moondyne 13:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow I'm in awe of your exploits, lots of bowing from we who are not worthy. DYK maybe? Gnangarra 13:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou gentlemen; are you pulling my leg? I fiddle more often than not, and I hardly think that little piece is worthy of praise. Well, I'm tickled pink all the same. Hesperian 00:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Us pulling your leg, sir I could be no more offend than that you'd think otherwise, we are truly in awe of your efforts. Sir I challenge you to yards at the house of monkey brass after Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/4. Gnangarra 02:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Chairmen of Committees of the Western Australian Legislative Assembly

Hi, just checking to see whether this category is actually needed. There seems to be a bewildering array of committees :) Orderinchaos 05:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Australian Barnstar of National Merit
		for your efforts with Australian articles Gnangarra 23:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Category fix - help please

Hi Hesperian. I've made a boo boo - I've created a category for Films shot in New York but I should have made it Films shot in New York City. There doesn't seem to be a Move tab for Categories. Before I do any more work adding articles to it, can you tell me how I can fix it, please? I'm guessing it's a bit more complicated than for articles. Sterry2607 (talk) 12:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch ... glad I didn't keep adding more things to it. I'll remember in future - but hope it won't happen again. Cheers Sterry2607 (talk) 07:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I ask for help again

Hi Hesperian, Just some advice (I think). I've been watching the article/stub for Aussie poet Kevin Hart. Over time there have been fairly subjective statements made, some positive some negative - uncited - that have come and gone. There is currently a pretty negative personal opinion sounding statement that I removed yesterday noting that it was uncited and inappropriate without substantiation. Today it has been added again. I can't talk directly to the editor as it's an IP address rather than a registered user. What should be the course of action? If this is not your area please let me know who I should contact. Ta muchly Sterry2607 (talk) 08:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all that. I appreciate learning a little more about what it acceptable here. I will follow your advice - probably use the article discussion page with the edit comment, if it continues. Hopefully I can now leave you alone for a while. Cheers Sterry2607 (talk) 06:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

brilliant

the leeuwin false etymology - please put it in the art! hey more of that - I must track you down for a beer and a talk about the guy whom i met in the national library map room who reckons all the portuguese early discovery is true just that everybody got the info about it wrong - hes intriguing fella - (the clue is they were sailing the opposite direction to what most researchers have foudn evidence for - according to him) - SatuSuro 13:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Can't mate. The false etymology comment is just my opinion; it can't be referenced.

My opinion of the Portuguese/French claims is that of J. S. Battye: "...it is not sufficiently strong to enable it to be laid down as a fact. It does, however, seem to establish the point that something was known of the Australian coastline prior to what is regarded as the first authenticated discovery, which was made by the Duyfken in 1606."

I'm putting the finishing touches on Leeuwin (Dutch ship) now, but as soon as I've posted it I will have to log off, lest I turn into a pumpkin. I won't have time to work in links from Leeuwin, Cape Leeuwin and STS Leeuwin II. If you feel like doing so, go for it.

Hesperian 13:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

then there's Leeuwin Current which runs down the west coast. Gnangarra 13:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

(SatuSuro) Actually, make that Leeuwin (galleon). Hesperian 13:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

(Gnangarra) I have Journal of the Royal Society of Western Australia, Volume 74: The Leeuwin Current in front of me right now. Can't see any info on the etymology of the term, but most likely it is named after the cape rather than the ship. Is named-after a transitive relation?

Hesperian

Leeuwin Current v this copy vio, esp imagery? Gnangarra 13:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys I think I might take a doubletake on all these things later :| SatuSuro 13:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Informing past contributors of new TFD for Template:Maintained

As you were a contributor in the last TFD, I am letting you know that {{Maintained}} is again up for deletion. Please review the current version of the template and discuss it at the TFD. Thanks! — BRIAN0918 • 2008-01-30 17:47Z

Is that legal?

Access to the original NLA scan is available at http://nla.gov.au/nla.map-rm749. The graphical user interface provided does not support downloading the full image at full resolution, but the back end can be cajoled to do so by manually editing the CGI arguments in the url, to http://www.nla.gov.au/lizardtech/iserv/getimage?cat=NLAObjects&img=/nla.map/rm/007/49/nla.map-rm00749-sd.sid&oif=jpeg&rgn=0,0,1,1&cmd=&wid=9600&hei=9600.

Well done! —Moondyne 06:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. It is nice that someone appreciates that effort; I was pretty proud of it myself. To get that level of resolution was a excellent reward for effort.

Legal? Of course it is legal. The real interface to services on the Web is the URL. HTML forms etc are just chrome. If someone makes something available via URL, then they have made it available, no matter how restrictive the chrome that they wrap it in.

...Actually, on reflection, it is not quite as clear-cut as that. If I used SQL injection to gain access to a data product that is normally available only by purchase, it would be difficult to argue that they had "made it available", and that I had not stolen it.

But this is very different. I think I'm pretty safe, don't you?

Hesperian 12:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course you are- I was being facetious. I reckon its a marvel and you should be proud. —Moondyne 14:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Somno Matter

On my user talk page, you wrote:

Be so kind as to disengage from Somno, or at least stop insulting him/her. This dispute has escalated to the point where the talk page noise is distracting other editors, some of whom are being dragged in. It is wasting our time, and generally creating a drag on our encyclopedia-building efforts. Hesperian 04:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I replied:

You don't get it do you? All that Somno needs to do is apologize. Rather than stand by a fellow editor, why don't you look at the facts and then advise Somno to do what is right and apologize? This is an interesting question and it deserves an answer. If you are not willing to do this, then I respectfully request that you mind your own business.

Colebatch

Finally looked this one up yesterday and found the source which confirms the somewhat tendentiously added contention that he twice ran as a Liberal candidate (1977 and 1993, it appears). I've dropped details on the Colebatch talk page. Orderinchaos 06:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Stackhousia

Well, I blued one red link but created 17 new ones in the process. Such is Wikipedia! --Melburnian (talk) 06:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, its hard to get through to people who don't have talk pages - btw, I liked your botanic slip -"viola! it is done" - :) --Melburnian (talk) 11:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Egad! pussytails a red link? - I will get my crack team of researchers onto it immediately :) --Melburnian (talk) 00:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

No worries, if you come across any other Australian genera in need of a stub, feel free to add them to User:Melburnian/checklist 1 --Melburnian (talk) 12:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Peter J Hancock

I didn't see that any of the edits had particular merit. This is an obvious case of a Wikipedia:Single purpose account trying to promote his own work. Sorry if you seem to think that WP:BITE trumps other policies, but we can't let users, new or otherwise, violate policies. In your welcome message, I noticed that you had failed to bring the users attention to the policy. Also, I would have been willing to let any edit stand which I felt improved the article to which it was attached. None of them did, in my opinion. So if you were, as you claim, handling it, then you clearly have a very different sense of what is acceptable in an encyclopedia article than I do. Silly rabbit (talk) 14:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

DYK

On February 4, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Leeuwin (galleon), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Kindly nominated by PFHLai. Well done! Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Our friend

68.236.36.160 is back with a vengeance (again). Sigh. Somno (talk) 04:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, a month's rest will be nice. Thanks. :) Not sure where my talk page has gone though. Somno (talk) 04:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The above text is preserved as an archive of discussions at User talk:Hesperian. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on User talk:Hesperian. No further edits should be made to this page.