Talk:Zhu Cilang

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Notes from preliminary new page patrol. The article needs prose other than genealogy type info drawn from sources that are more than genealogy info. Most relevant is wp:notability which requires in-depth coverage by sources. I'm not marking any disposition of this, leaving for a later review, probably by others. Happy editing!.

North8000 (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle talk 22:13, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that after the 1644 Battle of Shanhai Pass, residents of Beijing expected to receive Wu Sangui with the Ming crown prince but were instead greeted by the Manchu prince Dorgon?

Source:

• https://books.google.com/books?id=cRXAcZGcpa8C&pg=PA19
• https://books.google.com/books?id=8nXLwSG2O8AC&pg=PA225

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Śāriputra
• Comment: Five-fold expansion

5x expanded by KAVEBEAR (talk). Self-nominated at 02:50, 8 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Zhu Cilang; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• The article is eligible on length, age, and other ruleouts, and the QPQ is eligible (wow, it's been in your back pocket for a while!). The hook, however, isn't great. It looks much more like a hook for Dorgon than for Zhu Cilang -- readers are far more likely to be drawn towards "who was there instead". (It'd be a great hook for Dorgon were he brought to GA.) How do you feel about any of these?
  • ALT1: ...that Zhu Cilang was known as Emperor Dao, meaning "the mournful emperor"?
  • ALT1a: ...that Ming crown prince Zhu Cilang was known as Emperor Dao, meaning "the mournful emperor"?
  • ALT1b: ...that Ming crown prince Zhu Cilang was known after his death as Emperor Dao, meaning "the mournful emperor"?
  • ALT1c: ...that Zhu Cilang was known after his death as Emperor Dao, meaning "the mournful emperor"?
  • ALT2: ...that when Zhu Cilang was asked why his family lost the Mandate of Heaven, he blamed it on their "treacherous ministers"?
• The first four are all rephrasings of one another, because I'm hedging a little how much context is necessary. Vaticidalprophet 10:22, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
  • I am fine with ALT2. Think we need a second review on this hook? The interesting thing is that his father Chongzhen also blamed his ministers for his woe. KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:37, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
    • Yeah, we'll need a second reviewer to approve ALT2. Vaticidalprophet 04:37, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
• I would approve, but is ALT2 cited? Unless I'm mistaken, I'm not seeing it mentioned in the two sources above, KAVEBEAR and Vaticidalprophet. Tails Wx 02:01, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
  • In their meeting, Li asked Zhu what caused his family to lose the Mandate of Heaven. The crown prince replied, "Because we made the mistake of employing treacherous ministers like Zhou Yanru." Li would keep Zhu alive during his occupation of the city and created him Prince of Song (宋王), in the article, is cited to Wakeman, Frederic E. (1985). "The Fall of Beijing". The Great Enterprise: The Manchu Reconstruction of Imperial Order in Seventeenth-century China. University of California Press. pp. 225–413. ISBN 978-0-520-04804-1. and Forges, Roger V. Des (2020). The Mythistorical Chinese Scholar-Rebel-Advisor Li Yan: A Global Perspective, 1606-2018. BRILL. p. 165. ISBN 978-90-04-42106-6.. Vaticidalprophet 02:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
    • I'm puzzled; I'm still not seeing it mentioned in those sources either. Tails Wx 02:14, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
      • Page 284 in Wakeman 1985. Can you read that? If not I can copy and paste the quote from the book. Forges 2020 is meant to cite Li enfeoffing him as Prince of Song which is not specifically mentioned in the Wakeman source. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:33, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
        • That should do. Approved ALT2, no other concerns. Tails Wx 12:20, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

@KAVEBEAR, Vaticidalprophet, and Tails Wx: I wanted to promote ALT2, but DYK rules stipulate that there needs to be a footnote at the end of the sentence containing the fact cited in the hook. (The two footnotes appear one sentence later and it's unclear which of the two sources contains the quote.) Cielquiparle (talk) 16:23, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Made the addition of the source to the end of the sentence. KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:12, 16 September 2023 (UTC)