Talk:Yibir

Hargeisa

This article deserves better and I invite editors to participate in improving it and bringing it up to proper Wikipedia levels. Abdi, perhaps you'll read this and help out--drop me a line, for old times' sake? Drmies (talk) 03:13, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Yibir

Whether deliberately or not, you are patently misrepresenting what Blench writes with regard to the Yibir dialect:

"These lects, spoken respectively by magicians and hunters among the Somali are said to differ substantially in lexicon from standard Somali. Whether this differentiation is in the nature of a code or these represent distinct languages remains unknown. For description see Kirk (1905)."

He clearly indicates in the quote above that it remains unknown whether "whether this differentiation is in the nature of a code or these represent distinct languages remains". For whatever reason, you want readers to believe that he is basing this on Kirk and that it is a certainty that the linguistic divergence of the Yibir language from Standard Somali is exclusively based on a difference in code, when all he does is indicate that readers should refer to Kirk for a description of the language ("For description see Kirk (1905)"). That's inexcusable, and I hope you at least do the right thing and undo your edit. Middayexpress (talk) 03:10, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

• You're not assuming much good faith, and rightly so: I guess I'm not the kind of person who does what you call "the right thing." Sorry. Drmies (talk) 03:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

If you say so. But I definitely am one to do the right thing. So I'll be sure to correct that misrepresentation cited above soon enough since you have already shown yourself completely unwilling to do so on your own. Middayexpress (talk) 03:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Right. You are just the guy to do the right thing, and I would pat you on the back if I could. (Just don't mistake a book for a PDF on a personal website, and use the right template. And when you remove valid content, make sure you also remove the relevant entries in the Works Cited (they're still there--go ahead and "delete references"). And declare your love and reverence for Blench, which apparently allows him to supersede chronology, on his website and not in WP mainspace. I'll save my remarks on punctuation inconsistencies, mixed metaphors, unclear antecedents, and misplaced prepositions for some other time--and copying your comments on your own talk page, I'll thrown in a "LOL.") Drmies (talk) 04:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Pointing out minor foibles in formatting on my part is no defense for said misrepresentation, I'm afraid. Secondly, Blench is obviously talking about the present & his knowledge of it when he asserts (in the present tense, no less) that it remains unknown "whether this differentiation is in the nature of a code or these represent distinct languages remains". He obviously is not referencing Kirk for that because the long since deceased Kirk could not possibly have any idea that it remains unknown whether the linguistic divergence between Yibir and Somali is due to a so-called difference in code or whether it is indicative of separate languages. Actually, Kirk makes it clear in his work that Yibir is a dialect of Somali in the very title of his work: "A grammar of the Somali language: with examples in prose and verse and an account of the Yibir and Midgan dialects". It's Blench who's asking "whether this differentiation is in the nature of a code or these represent distinct languages remains". Further, if you've done nothing wrong as you now seem to be indicating, then why did you thrice (1, 2, 3) feel the need to delete all traces of this talk page post? Those aren't the actions of someone who has nothing to hide. Middayexpress (talk) 04:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I concur with the above character assassination, and have nothing to add, but perhaps a mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Pff. Drmies (talk) 05:01, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Origins and oral tradition

The Kirk (1904–1905) and Rayne (1921) sources record oral narratives and anecdotes from Yibir informants. These accounts describe traditions and folklore, but they do not establish historical Jewish origin.

Modern anthropological and historical scholarship (e.g., Lewis 1999; Cerulli 1955; IRB Canada 2007; Luling 1992) indicates that the Yibir are indigenous to Somalia, and that claims of Jewish origin are symbolic or unsubstantiated. There is no credible archaeological, linguistic, or genetic evidence supporting a historical Jewish origin.

Per Wikipedia policy (WP:PRIMARY, WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, WP:NPOV), content should clearly distinguish between oral tradition and verifiable historical fact. Presenting disputed claims as fact gives undue weight and should be avoided.

This section should reflect the scholarly consensus while properly attributing oral narratives. I welcome discussion on the most neutral way to present this material.

~2026-38362-4 (talk) 05:43, 20 January 2026 (UTC)

Building on the points raised in the January 2026 post above, I've examined all three citations used in the "Jewish origin" section and found significant problems with each.

[20] Fisher, Ian. "Djibouti Journal; Somalia's 'Hebrews' See a Better Day." New York Times, August 15, 2000: The article does not support the claim that "some Yibir state they are descendants of Hebrews." The Yibir leader Ahmed Jama Hersi does not claim Jewish ancestry and their own oral history describes arriving as Arabic-speaking teachers. The Jewish label is presented throughout the section as externally imposed by other Somalis, not as a self-identification by the Yibir themselves.

[21] Bader, Christian. Les Yibro Mages Somali. Les juifs oubliés de la corne de l'Afrique. Paris: L'Harmattan, 2000, p. 138: The specific cited page (p.138) presents folkloric parallels and etymological comparisons that others have drawn between Yibro traditions and Jewish practices where it does not assert Jewish origin as fact. More critically, Bader's own conclusion elsewhere in the same book explicitly calls Yibro Jewish descent "improbables" ("improbable") and states that comparisons between Yibro and Hebrews "paraissent hautement suspects" ("appear highly suspect"). The book's title is being used to imply confirmation of Jewish origin when the author's actual conclusion directly contradicts this. Citing p.138 in isolation without acknowledging Bader's own conclusions is selective use of the source.

[22] Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada. "Somalia: Information on Yahhar also spelled Yibir [SOM8655]": The Wikipedia citation links to a UNHCR Refworld URL that is now a dead link (404). The document is only accessible via an ECOl.net archive at https://www.ecoi.net/en/document/1126853.html. More substantively, the document itself presents multiple competing origin theories including possible Tzigane (Roma) descent, and explicitly concludes with "further information is currently unavailable." It does not establish Jewish self-identification by the Yibir.

None of the three citations support the "Jewish origin" section as currently written. [20] contradicts the self-identification framing, [21] is being used selectively against its own author's conclusions, and [22] is both a dead link and presents inconclusive competing theories. Per WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, the section should be revised to clearly distinguish between external labels, folkloric parallels, and verifiable historical claims. WanderingSabehNomad (talk) 22:15, 31 May 2026 (UTC)