Talk:Wine

Wine and mortality

The article contains assertions that moderate wine consumption conveys health benefits, citing primary sources. This assertion of health benefits contradicts high-quality secondary sources and large epidemiologic studies. I am removing the "J curve" paragraph. It contradicts other information in this article that is supported by high-quality secondary sources. Sbelknap (talk) 20:47, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Is recent news relevant? Not that Wikipedia treats all "alcohol" in a coherent way, I guess. And not that there might be counter-evidence with regard to wine specificlaly, that may have been lost in such a large-scale global study. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:17, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

The current text cites low-quality evidence, mostly from primary sources, and mentions a J-point curve, where moderate ethanol consumption gives health advantages over abstinence. This has been known to be erroneous for some time to experts in the field. Recently, a high-quality secondary source has become available, and this deprecates much of the existing text in the current version of the article. Sbelknap (talk) 03:29, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

A systematic analysis of data from the Global Burden of Disease Study, which was an observational study, found that long term consumption of any amount of alcohol is associated with an increased of risk of death in all people, and that even moderate conception appears to be risky. Similar to prior analyses, it found an apparent benefit for older women in reducing the risks of death from ischemic heart disease and from diabetes, but unlike prior studies it found those risks cancelled by an apparent increased risk of death from breast cancer and other causes. A 2016 systematic review and meta-analysis found that moderate ethanol consumption brought no mortality benefit compared with lifetime abstention from ethanol consumption. Sbelknap (talk) 03:29, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

References

I have no objection to updating the article to reflect these more recent (and more valid) studies. I say go for it. ~Anachronist (talk) 08:38, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Agree. I guess the text here should match whatever is presented at Health effects of wine. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:12, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Missing

Alcohol and its role in the preservation of grape juice. Fermentation and its role in preservation with alchohol as a byproduct. -Inowen (nlfte) 01:20, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 November 2018

first wine was found in country Georgia (sakartvelo) 8000 BC 64.113.187.34 (talk) 13:27, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Where's your source for that claim? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:30, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done. Please make a precise request about what you want to change and provide reliable sources to back up any claims. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 16:23, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

And that is why the article is protected: it was subject to frequent disruption by anons trying to add this very factoid without evidence. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Add wikipedia link to "Trans-Caucasia" in Etymology

What the title says. Link to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.109.105.245 (talk) 23:56, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

House wine listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect House wine. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:48, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

False information on "Map showing the word for wine in European languages"

Nobody (<<5%) in Florina (northern Greece) says "vino". This information was just assumed because of the misleading and confusing map "Simplified Languages of Europe map.svg" which in its description says "In some cases, the area indicated for a language reflects where some of its speakers live but not necessarily where they form the majority of the population.". It is like marking whole Germany as using the word krasi just because there are some Greek speaking people living in Germany, or marking whole Greece as using Wine (???)... In any case, this information is wrong. If I'd know how, i'd correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0A:A546:199:0:F4EF:E4AF:D5DC:4DF0 (talk) 06:28, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I suspect that at least one person in Florina may have uttered the word "vino" since you added your comment above. But that's just my guess, of course. The map is this one. It's not clear tome if that area of the map you seem to be referring to equates to Florina or not. Is the essential difference here between Greece and Macedonia? There is only so much detail that can be shown on a map of such a large area. But I'm sure you are welcome to make suggestions for improvement at the Talk page for that image over in Commons. Or even directly to the creator User:PiMaster3, although they do not seem to have edited at Wikipedia since November 2019 (more active in Commons). Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:36, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Lead section

The recent additions to the lead section are very welcome, especially if they re accompanied by citations. But, as with most articles, the lead section is meant to summarize the entire article and should have nothing that is not present, with supporting sources, in the article main body. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:25, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Fantasy viking winemaker in the Americas

The text introduces several times the idea that the vikings made wine in the Americas, an idea which doesn't make any sense because they only arrived briefly into a very limited area very far in the North. On the article's beginning there is this sentence: "New World wine has some connection to alcoholic beverages made by the indigenous peoples of the Americas, but is mainly connected to later Viking area of Vinland and Spanish traditions in New Spain.[8][9]" which is only supported by a reference about "vinland" that does not contain any reference to winemaking, neither for Vikings nor American indigenous peoples. On "History" there is another link to "Vinland: The Mystical Legend of “The Land of Grapes”" that talks about legendary sagas and not about anything that has been archeologically or historically proved, as in the previous paragraphs. I would suggest that the first made up statement should be deleted and, for the second one its content should be corrected to what the referenced article actually says. --Beengorge (talk) 14:52, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Joseullin.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:02, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): SerinaNiux.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:02, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Less Wine

Is there a type of wine known as 'Less Wine'. I thought I heard it being mentioned at a conference that I attended. The butler said something about wanting to try less wine. The person sitting beside me said that she has had it on holidays and that it was amazing. 2A00:23CC:4D88:2701:65CE:C2D6:4B85:52AB (talk) 23:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I drink less wine whenever I visit the Middle East. Sneftel (talk) 16:40, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Etymology

The article says Georgian word "ghvino" is related to "vine":

Georgian ღვინო, "ghvino" or "(grape) vine", itself derived from the Proto-Indo-European stem *win-o-

But there is no such word in Georgian for the plant; it just describes the drink. Phonetically closest one is "ვენახი", "ven-a-khi", which means vineyard, but I'm not sure if there's a connection there. Vine (plant) itself doesn't have a single word in Georgian. — 185.70.53.122 (talk) 17:47, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 July 2023

2601:644:4800:2A0:DD5A:7C08:A488:175D (talk) 06:31, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

{Wine is for weddings, so most people use Ubers to drive home}

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:55, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2024

The country of origin of wine listed on this Wikipedia page is listed as Georgia, however the oldest winery ever discovered is in the neighboring country of Armenia (see the following National Geographic article: ). Please change the country of origin of wine from Georgia to Armenia. 47.232.166.242 (talk) 09:02, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Hey, IP, I see that the headline there indicates this, but the source is behind a paywall for me. Can you give me the relevant quote? Valereee (talk) 12:44, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done NM, found it. That's a 2011 article; the support for Georgia is a 2017 article. Valereee (talk) 12:53, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I see we have Areni-1 winery, which says "The winery ... is believed to be at least a thousand years older than the winery unearthed in the West Bank in 1963, which is the second oldest currently known." So that might need to be corrected. But I also note that Armenian wine says: "Armenia is one of the oldest wine producing regions of the world. In particular, the oldest known winery was found in Armenia's Areni region (see Areni-1 winery), which to this day is still known of its wine production and endemic grapes." So likewise, currently in contradiction. There seems to be a distinction between "oldest wine producing regions" and "oldest winery"? Just sayin'. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:58, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it's all a bit confusing. Confused further by the need to do math. :) I'm thinking a very recent scholarly work is what we need to be looking for? Valereee (talk) 13:17, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Also...any idea how to fix the archiving here? Valereee (talk) 13:19, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry not my strong subject (what is, lol). But User:Ritchie333 might be able to help? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:40, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the most recent scholarly article ought to solve all (?) Martinevans123 (talk) 13:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Misleading and selective sources

One user keeps inserting questionable source information to support claim of oldest wine being from Syria. You can tell by the URL that this is cherry picking - they just went and typed specific keywords to prove what they themselves believe. This source is not appropriate. It's medical book on hepatology that mentions wine origins only in passing. Even then it talking about discovery of "grape seed", which may or may not be evidence of wine. In any case, people who study medicine and liver functions cannot be taken as experts on history or archeology. Same user in the past added website of a private equipment manufacturing business, which is not WP:RS. LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 03:20, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I would've appreciated it if you had tagged.

Why did you not mention the other source i added The Atlas of Germany? Published by the University of California? It states that the oldest evidence of winemaking was found near Damascus. Did you not read it? if yes then why did you remove it? Whatsupkarren (talk) 12:57, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

German book mentions in passing that "A fruit and grape press" was found near Damascus and presents zero evidence this press was used to make wine and not some other beverage. It even start in saying "It is not known when the first vineyards were planted or when their grapes were turned into wine". In any case these are obscure resources that mention your cherry pick information only in passing. Someone who talks about modern winemaking in Germany and only mentions prehistoric stuff in passing cannot be taken as archeological expert on the matter of wine findings in Syria, just as hepatologist that talks about liver medicine you cited and mentions origins of wine in passing is not sufficient.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 23:15, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

But even more important than your misleading sourcing is that your edits are clearly driving "agenda". You already decide for yourself that you want to highlight Syria at any cost, so you scour information everywhere with reverse searches to try to find some shreds of information to support this, even if you have to scrape bottom of the barrel and cite medical books, etc. That is the main problem and it also creates false balance.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 23:43, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I think you might be projecting, you refused to discuss on talk page for a while and just kep removing my edits calling my sources unreliable.

even if my sources (1) published by university of California press and (2) Springer an international publisher and is a quite reliable source mention that fact in passing, does that just mean the fact is wrong?

I think we can rephrase the section in a better way to include the fact the the one of the oldest evidence of winemaking was found in Damascus.

I'd like to ask for some 3 opinions on whether my sources can be used or not Whatsupkarren (talk) 09:28, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@LeontinaVarlamonva You also called my sources old, well, they're not older than some of the sources used in this article. The Wine Atlas of Germany was published in 2014!!! Newr than the sources used for Iran's wine history, one of them dating to 1996, the other 2012. Whatsupkarren (talk) 09:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Publisher reputation has little to do with whether individual work/expert is qualified to make archeological claims in areas outside of what they understand, especially when they just mention something in passing. When a non-expert mention something in passing, and you elevate that on same level as all other information, that creates false balance.

Rules on this site clearly say "Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source or information that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable". And that is exactly what your contributions did when you use medical book to support archeological claims, or when you cite modern German winemaker to back questionable archeological information from thousands of years ago in Syria they only mention in passing.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 17:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Wine/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Ligaturama (talk · contribs) 10:44, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 10:11, 9 August 2025 (UTC)

Comments

• Lead is ok on production but needs to cover the social and consumption aspects of wine.
  • Done, kept it very brief.

• History: is quite a long chapter. Given that History of wine is a main-linked subsidiary article, the chapter should not be longer than the lead section of that article (but fully cited). Unfortunately that article's lead doesn't summarize its article text very well (it's a bit heavy on Judaism, and light on other civilisations, for instance) so we could do with a better but brief summary both there and here.
  • "the chapter should not be longer than the lead section of [ History of wine ]" - is that an actual policy? One of the difficulties of this article is that so many of its sections have full articles covering their topics, and I was tempted to make this one purely a Template:Main link, but thought that was a cop-out (although I'd be very happy to do that if it's legit, couldn't find any policy on this). Obviously it's a huge topic; I'm sure I can strip out a few sentences, but some of it is relevant elsewhere (e.g. the invention of the wine bottle, and phylloxera), and I felt it would be incomplete without at least something from each century. History of wine needs a lot of work, and its own lead should probably be longer, but I think updating it is out of scope for this GA nomination. Ligaturama (talk) 14:59, 9 August 2025 (UTC)
    • Updating the other article is always beyond the GA criteria; my point is that if you are making a summary of that article to go with the "main" link in "summary style", you might as well copy your summary over there at no extra cost. (Conversely, if the section is not a summary of that article, the "main article" claim is false.) It's certainly hard to see why a summary here would be longer than a summary over there. A main link on its own is indeed a copout and not desirable; it makes some sense for a list of alumni, for instance, but not a lot for a history. The length thing is covered by the GACR requirements for coverage, for balance, and for not going into excessive detail (in any particular section): it just provides a simple guideline for roughly what to aim at.
      • Copied and trimmed
        • OK. Since the text is not a summary of the other article, I've tweaked the link to be 'further' not 'main', as explained above.
          • Thank you for fixing the refs on History of Wine, I can't believe I neglected to do that. Sheer incompetence on my part.

• Styles: ok, though the weight given to "Orange" seems a bit undue. Most of the section feels like an expansion of the very meagre table; it might be clearer to expand and cite the table (with a bit of text and refs in each table cell), to beef up the text before the table slightly, and to do without all the text after the table. The mention of regions does not belong in this section, for instance (that's Production).
  • Done; I've shifted most of the content into the table and put some stuff in footnotes to keep it short. Orange wine only gets two sentences which I don't think is too much, it's been experiencing a dramatic increase in popularity over the past decade.

• Production: ok. I find the "Containers" subsection a bit overweight; why not trim it a bit as it's only marginally on-topic really, both for the section and indeed for the article.
  • Done

• Classification: ok. The Swiss bit may need updating as 2022 has been and gone.
  • I really struggled to find anything on Switzerland, they only export 1-2% of their produce. I've updated it with the only relevant thing I could find.

• Consumption: ok. Some copyediting would help, e.g. "not just ... as well": in fact that sentence could be cut down to "Wine is useful in cooking." as we don't need to repeat the stuff about value as a drink, we've said that already.
  • Done

• Storage: need not be a whole chapter, suggest demote to subsection of Consumption.
  • Done

• Collecting: this section is just one aspect (qua, a subsection) of wine's social and cultural significance, which (barring religion) is almost absent from this article.
  • Moved

• Religious significance: this section is plainly WP:UNDUE at nearly 700 words. It should not be longer than, say, 'Collecting'. The Judaism section is perhaps the most obviously overdone, close to WP:COATRACK but all of it feels overweight. See next item for suggested treatment.
  • Trimmed

Wine selling advertisement and prices, "Ad Cucumas" shop, ancient Roman painting in Herculaneum

'Still Life with Bottles, Wine, and Cheese' by John F. Francis, 1857, ... there are plenty of other wine paintings from different periods

• The missing In society chapter can certainly cover collecting, but it needs also to mention wine as a social lubricant, the whole Wine, women and song thing - why not summarize that article and use some of its sources - wine in art (a small gallery of famous paintings would be apposite here), wine in poetry (e.g. Keats's "Ode to a Nightingale" ("O for a beaker full of the warm South...")), wine in music (e.g. Haydn's The Seasons, complete with a setting of James Thomson's riotous lines to wine in his poem "Autumn"), in literature (Canterbury Tales, "Good wine is a good familiar creature, if used well." Othello (Act 2, Scene 3), Oscar Wilde, Ernest Hemingway ...), wine bars, cultures like France and Italy where wine is/was expected at meals, etc. I suggest that you make both 'Collecting' and 'In religion' subsections of 'In society', i.e. we'll get a structure like
  • In society
    • Wine bars
    • In restaurants
    • In European culture (esp. France, Italy)
    • 'Wine, women, and song'
    • In music
    • Collecting
    • In art
    • In poetry
    • In literature
    • In religion

• • All those subsections should be brief and of roughly similar length.
    • I believe these are now all done. Couldn't find much on music but I've incorporated it into the arts section.
      • More could be said, but the mentions will do for GA.

Images

• All the images are on Commons and are plausibly licensed. Several of them seem to include materials that may be under trademark; only one, the Margaux bottle, actually declares that in its Licensing section, so it might be wise to do the same for the other images that seem likely to need it.
  • Done

• The images are in the main apposite and helpful. The lead image (and its caption) is the dullest; a better selection of samples in glasses (Rosé? Sparkling? Dessert?) would make the infobox more informative, more representative of the article text, and less pedestrian. This could be done with a group of images of the same size using the infobox parameter | static_image_name = {{multiple images | border = infobox | perrow= 2/2/2 | total_width=260px | image1 = abc.jpg | caption1 = ABC | image2= | caption2= ... etc}}, it doesn't require a single image.
  • Done; I agree that the original image was dull (I've replaced it with an extremely similar image), but it definitely meets MOS:IMAGEREL, as do the additions. Images of wine can be only so exciting, and most of the wine images on Commons are pretty rubbish.

Sources

• A suitable mix of books, journal articles, and news items.

• Spot-checks: [5] ok, [36] ok, [46] doesn't mention reduction or attribute it to alternative closures?, [56] dead link, [72] ok, [102] ok.
  • Fixed these

Summary

• This article is of a mature vintage, but is lacking most of what would be expected in terms of wine's impact on culture and society. Accordingly this part of the article will need substantial work, incorporating some existing materials. Detailed suggestions for this are given above. The lead will need to be extended to cover the new chapter. When this is done I will conduct a second pass review. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:37, 9 August 2025 (UTC)

  Thank you for your review, I'll aim to address its points over the next few days. To discuss any specific points, or to keep track of what I've done, I'll put a new comment on this top-level review so things don't get mixed up. Ligaturama (talk) 14:57, 9 August 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks for the thoughts, but please, don't do that. Could we please have each reply/discussion under the comment that it applies to, rather than down here in one massive undiscussable lump. I'll move the reply paragraphs to where they apply now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:29, 9 August 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Kha'y" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Kha'y has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 September 17 § Kha'y until a consensus is reached. consarn _{(grave) (obituary)} 16:51, 17 September 2025 (UTC)