Talk:Voiced retroflex lateral fricative

Redirect?

@Oklopfer I saw you tagged the only occurrence as unreliable. Redirect?

Also pinging @Kwamikagami and @4meter4. - BᴏᴅʜıHᴀᴙᴩ (talk, contributions, deleted contributions, logs, filter log, block log) 22:40, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

No, it has its own IPA letter, it should be at least a stub. — kwami (talk) 23:39, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

I'm not really knowledgable in this area in terms of interpreting the content. All I am really good for is helping to find materials that use the term. This book uses the term. It is mentioned in this book on Tibeto-Burman Languages and in this book. No opinion as to redirecting. Best.4meter4 (talk) 22:50, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

The first is not reliable. Maddieson is an expert in the field, but that particular publication is a compilation of reports from various sources, wwithout any evaluation. He would later go on to investigate many of the most notable ones with Ladefoged. In some cases they would verify extraordinary claims, but in other cases the claims didn't hold up.

I don't know Namkung, but that also appears to be a compilation, and so no more reliable than the original claims.

Can't see enough of the Telugu text to know which language they're talking about. If it's also Ao, then we likely have 3 sources repeating the same claim, likely without verification, and therefore the question would still be whether the original claim was reliable. — kwami (talk) 23:50, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

I don't have access to Gowda's 1972 Ao-Naga Phonetic Reader, but I do have his 1975 Ao Grammar. He clearly establishes /r/ (as it's written in the practical orthography) as a distinct phoneme, but doesn't go into any phonetic detail apart from labeling it a 'voiced lateral retroflex fricative' without a proper symbol. This contrasts with /l/, which is a 'voiced alveolar lateral'. Interestingly, the language admits only two word-initial consonant clusters, which both involve this consonant: /pr/ and /tr/. — kwami (talk) 00:17, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

Given that retroflex laterals are fairly common in the Indian context (see esp. Tamil phonology), I wouldn't expect Gowda to call this a 'fricative' and state that <ḷ> was inadequate as a symbol if it were just a retroflex lateral approximant. Also, from his 1985 dictionary, it's clear that superscript h is being used for digraphs, not to indicate aspiration. Thus <ḷʰ> would seem to be the same kind of derivation from 'ḷ' that <sʰ> (sh/š) is from 's'. Clearly he's claiming that this isn't simply [ɭ] with an old-fashioned definition of the word 'fricative'. It would be nice if he actually described the sound; maybe he does in the reader if we're lucky. — kwami (talk) 00:20, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami I was able to obtain a digital copy, and Gowda makes the same distinction between a 'voiced alveolar lateral' ⟨l⟩ and a 'voiced lateral retroflex fricative' ⟨lʰ⟩, but does give descriptions:

[l]
To produce this sound the air stream is obstructed by raising the tip of the tongue to touch the teeth ridge. But unlike for stops, there is a complete closure only in the centre of the oral cavity and the sides of the tongue are open for the air to escape through. The soft palate is raised to close the nasal cavity and the vocal cords vibrate to produce voice.
This sound is called Voiced Alveolar Lateral.
It occurs initially and medially.

— p. 32

[lʰ]
To produce this sound the air passage is obstructed by raising and turning back the blade of the tongue towards the hard palate. There is complete closure in the middle of the mouth. However, there is opening on the sides of the tongue for the air to pass through freely. Even at the centre of the oral cavity there is no complete closure and the air passes through the narrow opening between the tongue and the palate also producing friction. The soft palate is raised and the vocal cords vibrate to produce voice.
This sound is called Voiced Retroflex Lateral Fricative
It occurs in all positions.

— pp. 32-33

To me, that sounds like it is describing an approximant ⟨ɭ⟩, not a fricative ⟨𝼅⟩; though the statement Even at the centre of the oral cavity there is no complete closure and the air passes through the narrow opening between the tongue and the palate also producing friction feels a bit contradictory. ~ oklopfer (💬) 01:45, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

He contrasts the kind of airflow, and given that [ɭ] is a fairly common sound in India, I don't see how he'd confuse them. The deixis in his writing is a bit unclear to me, but what I think he's saying is that the frication is produced at the palate, in the center of the oral tract where the tongue only approaches the roof of the mouth, and that the air then flows over the sides of the tongue. I have no idea where the frication is normally produced in a lateral fricative, or even where I produce it, but for category identification it shouldn't really matter: if the airflow is to the side, and there is turbulence, then it's a lateral fricative. — kwami (talk) 02:17, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

But wouldn't the air to pass through freely… there is no complete closure imply a distinct lack of turbulence? ~ oklopfer (💬) 02:30, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

He's saying there is friction in the center, and that the air passes freely at the sides. So no contradiction there. I've never thought about whether the frication in a lateral fricative is itself lateral, but it seems clear enough what he's saying. And detailed enough that he's clearly paid a good deal of attention to the matter. Whether another phonetician would agree with his analysis I don't know -- it's always a good idea to get a second opinion when a sound's been reported from only a single language -- but I see no reason to doubt that he meant exactly what he said. — kwami (talk) 02:37, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

I think I get what you're saying now. His wording is quite confusing nonetheless - some better punctuation would have been helpful. ~ oklopfer (💬) 02:44, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I had to puzzle over it for quite a while before it made sense.

Does the 'phonetic reader' list 6 vowels and 14 consonants? If it does, I'll leave that as the ref for the Ao article, otherwise I'll switch to the grammar. — kwami (talk) 02:48, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

It actually lists 9 vowels and 23 consonants, quite a bit more than what's currently listed on the Ao page. I can update the chart to reflect it if you want. Or place a second one so that both of the differing tables are provided. ~ oklopfer (💬) 02:53, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

No, it looks like in his second expedition Gowda confirmed some of those as allophones. It's the same author with more data and more time for analysis, so the grammar is the better source. — kwami (talk) 02:59, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

On p. 56 of his phonology, he calls /r/ 'a fricativized retroflex lateral'. — kwami (talk) 08:27, 24 November 2025 (UTC)