Talk:Timurid Empire/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

RfC about the use of "Persianate"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

.

Should the adjective "Persianate" be used as the primary qualifier in the lead of the articles about the various Turko-Mongol nomadic entities who invaded Iran and became more or less acculturated to Persian culture? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 16:54, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

No (per nomination).
As of today, the adjective "Persianate" has been added as the primary qualifier, and quite stereotypically, in the lead sentence of most Turko-Mongol polities who invaded/occupied Iran in the Medieval period:

• Timurid Empire: "a late medieval, culturally Persianate Turco-Mongol empire"
• Qara Qoyunlu: "a culturally Persianate, Muslim Turkoman monarchy"
• Aq Qoyunlu: "a culturally Persianate, Sunni Turkoman tribal confederation"
• Ilkhanate: "ruled by the Persianated Mongol House of Hulagu"
• Qutlugh-Khanids: "a culturally Persianate dynasty of ethnic Khitan origin"
• Khwarazmian Empire: "a culturally Persianate, Sunni Muslim empire of Turkic mamluk origin"
• Ghurid dynasty: "a Persianate dynasty of presumably eastern Iranian Tajik origin"
• Ghaznavid Empire: "a culturally Persianate, Sunni Muslim dynasty and empire of Turkic mamluk origin"

1) Although there is no denying the progressive Persian acculturation of these invaders over time, and the powerful influence of Persian culture, I tend to think that it is WP:UNDUE to place a particular cultural influence, here the "Persianate" qualifier, at the beginning of the lead before all other, more fundamentamental, considerations of nationality/ ethnicity etc... For example, the Timurids were Turko-Mongols by nature, before becoming "culturally Persianate" to whatever extent: the lead should respect this hierarchy. I would support for the "Persianate" attribute to be used in a secondary position only, after nationality/ ethnicity are mentioned, in a balanced sentence about the culture of the polity in question, for example: "The Timurid Empire was a late medieval Turco-Mongol empire (...) The empire was culturally hybrid, combining Turko-Mongolian and Persianate influences with the last members of the dynasty being regarded as ideal Perso-Islamic rulers", with references (this version).
2) As a general rule, I don't think Wikipedia uses adjectives related to acculturation as the primary qualifier when defining a polity in the lead, such as "Indianized", "Westernitized", "Americanized", "Sinicized", although it is perfectly legitimate to develop such arguments in a "Culture" section, with references. For example, we do not present Japan in the lead as "a Sinicized Asian nation", although the absorption of Chinese culture by Japan is a huge formative factor, and is otherwise well documented in our articles on this country.
3) Systemically adding the "Persianate" tag as the first qualifier for these polities could be understood as Irano-centrism, and a way to deny original nomadic cultures, or to somehow suggest that the invaders were really the ones "vanquished" by local culture, which is futile (but is often seen in India-related articles where some users may try to qualify all invading polities as "Indianized"). To the lay person, it also gives the false impression that the culture of these nomads was exclusively Persian, which is misleading, and is generally not corroborated by facts, or even by the content of the article the lead is supposed to summarize. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 16:54, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose; As soon as I showed sources that contradicted your claims, it's RFC.. sigh.

1. ) You need to prove that it's WP:UNDUE for every listed dynasty; you need to prove that the (often initial) nationality/ethnicity of the rulers is more important than the dominant culture of the society/government/bureaucracy they ruled; you failed to do that with the Timurids. People are welcome to read the discussion up above to see that.
2. ) That depends on what WP:RS says, we ultimately base our articles on those, as the case in the listed articles, since it was undoubtedly their most important aspect, something the lede is meant to demonstrate. Also, "Indianized"/Sinicized/whatever is not the same as "Persianate", which its article calls "a society that is based on or strongly influenced by the Persian language, culture, literature, art and/or identity"
3. ) You're thinking too deep into this, and by that logic, I could claim that removing "Persianate" is anti-Iranian, and seeing the word "Sunni" come up first makes me think the only thing they thought about was Sunni Islam. By that same logic, WP:RS that uses the term "Persianate" or emphasize the Persian culture of listed dynasties are "Irano-centric". You keep bringing India up, despite it not being relevant here, it's a completely different nation with a different history. I do, however, think "Persianated" and "Persianate" should be removed from the ledes of the Ilkhanate and Qutlugh-Khanids articles, as it's not cited by any source neither in the lede nor body of the article. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:17, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

No (Support) - I agree with the nominator that it is not appropriate to use the first adjective in an article to describe a state as being influenced by a particular culture. This is especially true when the state only adopted that culture later in its history (which is true for most of the states mentioned in the original comment). Additionally, the sources cited for these examples often do not use the term "Persianate" to introduce these states, but instead refer to their origins. It would be more appropriate to mention "Persianate" in a different part of the article’s lead, ideally in a part that discusses the culture and language of the state. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 13:36, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: I agree that some rebalancing may be in order. Let's put it this way: if I were asked what one word defined each of these empires, my answer to a lot of them would be "Turkic" and I agree that while all of this information is relevant, the prioritization a bit off. Taking the Qara Qoyunlu and Aq Qoyunlu, I note that Persian, as the "official" language (for court/administrative stuff), is also being placed above the "dynastic" language, which is Azerbaijani, in the infobox. I believe that this is where the crux of the matter lies. No doubt that all of these entities overlapped with the Persian sphere and took over the reins of the existing Persianate administrative structures in place, but it is the "dynastic" identity that actually defines the character of these powers, much as the Abbasid Empire remained an Arab Empire despite its extremely significant Persian influence. The languages of the ruling class are a dead giveaway for many of these. With the Ghaznavids, it is the "military" (read: conquering overlords) language of Turkic that we should be looking to. Back to the Qara Qoyunlu and Aq Qoyunlu, these were Turkoman tribal confederations; whatever other information exists about them, faith alignment, Persian administrative function, etc., is secondary to their Turkic tribal nature. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:19, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Support Medieval empires in the Muslim East have their own logic of governance|administration. The fact that Persians are the majority in the bureaucracy does not mean that the empire is Persianized. When we look at the Middle Ages from the 21st century, we must take into consıderation that there was no nation-state. Firstly the empire was a dynasty's property, and the dynasty's source of legitimacy and its language were important, not some bureaucrat's documentation language.

It's not as simple as "Persians being the majority in the bureaucracy", otherwise this would not even be a discussion - see what the cited sources says. You're heavily downgrading it, which is frankly not surprising considering your past edits . Your claim that there were no nation-state from the Middle Ages to 21st century is not only irrelevant, but heavily erroneous; were the no countries in 2000? 1900? and so on. I see a lot of claims here, with no source to back it up. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:01, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I'll put the sources here as well (this is just for the Timurids, I can easily bring it out for the dynasties as well, unlike some other users for their claims), let's see how this will be refuted;

"Moreover, Timur was scarcely a nomad, a creator of a steppe empire, but rather the product of an islamized and iranized society..." p. 173 - The History of the Mongol Conquests, J. J. Saunders, University of Pennsylvania Press

"In almost all the territories which Temür incorporated into his realm Persian was the primary language of administration and literary culture. Thus the language of the settled 'divan' was Persian." - p. 109, Manz, Beatrice Forbes (1999). The Rise and Rule of Tamerlane. Cambridge University Press

"With his death in 1405, Timur’s empire disintegrated, in accordance with the nomadic patrimonial succession rules for the division of the conqueror’s empire among his sons. The disintegration of Timur’s empire into a growing number of Timurid principalities ruled by his sons and grandsons allowed the remarkable rebound of the Ottomans and their westward conquest of Byzantium and the rise of rival Turko-Mongolian nomadic empires of the Qara Qoyunlu and Āq Qoyunlu in western Iran, Iraq, and eastern Anatolia. In all of these nomadic empires, however, Persian remained the official court language and the Persianate ideal of kingship prevailed. The political culture of the polycentric Timurid empire was deeply tinged by Sufism as the dominant Persianate form of Islam spread throughout the Persianate world with the free movement of its bearers, namely the bureaucratic estate of divān monshi (chancery secretaries), from one court to another" - p. 45, Arjomand, Saïd Amir Arjomand (2022). Revolutions of the End of Time: Apocalypse, Revolution and Reaction in the Persianate World. Brill.

"Similarly, Timurid Herat and Samarqand were the most influential Persianate role models of the elites of the Ottoman and arguably also Mughal empires. Secondly, the decentering of Iran is also justified by this volume’s main focus on the Timurid period onwards, on the centuries during which a multiplicity of Persian literary traditions and hubs of Persianate culture came to dilute the sweet clarion call of Shiraz." / "For whatever the rhetorical claims of Nawa’i’s Muhakamat al-Lughatayn (Contention of the Two Languages), the appearance of Chaghatai texts at the court of Sultan Husayn Bayqara (r. 1469–70, 1470– 1506) never amounted to anything approaching a systematic Timurid program to promote Turkic at the expense of Persian: both the Timurid court and chancery remained wedded to Persian. Indeed, the scope of Persographia expanded, since Persian began to be deployed as a language of jurisprudence (fiqh) under the late Timurids precisely after Bayqara’s chief magistrate in Herat compiled Mukhtar alIkhtiyar, a legal textbook that remained in use till the twentieth century." / "The first section of the book, “Pan-Eurasian Expansions, ca. 1400–1600,” charts the widest reach that Persian usage achieved under the early modern empires and regional polities that followed the breakup of the Mongol and Timurid empires that had done so much to expand and promote the prestige of Persian." - pages xv, 30, 50, In Green, Nile (ed.). The Persianate World: The Frontiers of a Eurasian Lingua Franca. University of California Press.

"But since the advent of Islam in the seventh century, Central Asia had been intregal to the Persianate dynasties and cultures from the Samanids down to the Timurids and even as late as the Mughals." page 230, Dabashi, Hamid (2012). The World of Persian Literary Humanism. Harvard University Press

"Persian literature, especially poetry, occupied a central in the process of assimilation of Timurid elite to the Perso-Islamicate courtly culture, and so it is not surprising to find Baysanghur commissioned a new edition of Firdawsi's Shanameh ..." - page 130, David J. Roxburgh. The Persian Album, 1400–1600: From Dispersal to Collection. Yale University Press, 2005

"The Mughals came out of the Persianate cultural florescence patronised by Timur and his descendants in Samarqand and Herat." p. 235, The Muslim World in Modern South Asia: Power, Authority, Knowledge, Francis Robinson, State University of New York Press

""During the Tīmūrid period, three languages, Persian, Turkish, and Arabic, were in use. The major language of the period was Persian, the native language of the Tajik (Persian) component of society and the language of learning acquired by all literate and/or urban Turks. Persian served as the language of administration, history, belles lettres, and poetry." - Tīmūrids, EI2

--HistoryofIran (talk) 20:08, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: I suppose the location of this discussion is perhaps a little ironic in the sense that the Timurid empire is probably the least contentious of these entries. I have no major problem with "Persianate Turko-Mongolic Empire" in this particular context. However, I would assert that in all cases the phrase "culturally Persianate" is rather tautologous and unnecessarily redundant, since the understanding that the influence is a cultural one is self-contained in the term "Persianate" from the outset. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:06, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I am not saying that there were no nation-states in the 20th and 19th centuries, I am saying that there were no nation-states in the 16th Middle East. At that time, there were no nation-states even in Europe. For example, the White Sheep or the Black Sheep were confederations or empires. An empire, which is composed of many countries (possibly non-sovereign states) and nations under a single monarch or ruling state government.

I am citing the nation-state as an example because such a system must be modern in order to be established. In empires, each ethnic group is engaged in its own life and pays taxes. If Persianization happened, how come tens of millions of Turks or other non-Persians live in the territory of these empires? If the Persianization of the state took place, how could the Persians be formed as the second force in the state after the Qara Qoyunlu only during the Safavid period?

If these ruling dynasties lived nomadically and spoke their own dynastic languages, what kind of Persianization can we talk about?

Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Anyhow, we ultimately follow WP:RS, not our own personal deductions. If you think all these historians are in the wrong, then I sure do hope you have a lot of WP:RS to back that up. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:32, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

For the record: user:Qızılbaş has never edited the Timurid Empire article prior to leaving this comment. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:31, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - What I have observed, is that Qizilbash thinks Persianate has to do with the number of Persians in the Timurid Empire???? 🙄 Clearly they have not read the article. While, Golden states, " I agree with the nominator that it is not appropriate to use the first adjective in an article to describe a state as being influenced by a particular culture.", yet Golden thinks the majority language used by a poet should be presented as that poet's ethnicity(violation MOS:Ethnicity). Neither cares to address the fact that majority of literature produced by the Timurid Empire was in Persian; Zafarnāmeh, Shāhnāmeh of Baysunghur, Mukhtar al-Ikhtiyar(legal manual), Irshad al-zira'a(agricultural treatise), Ulugh Beg wrote astronomical treatises in Persian, hell even Timur's grandson was taught Persian poetry! Even the sultans Shāh Rukh Mīrzā and his son Mohammad Taragai Oloğ Beg, patronized Persian culture. And all of this information is referenced. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:22, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The diff you linked actually demonstrates that I do not think it should be just based on majority language. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 03:47, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Empire versus poet is an apples and oranges comparison and doesn't really help much here. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:10, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Neither does a "support" vote based on Persianate being the number of Persians in the Timurid Empire.

• "The fact that Persians are the majority in the bureaucracy does not mean that the empire is Persianized."

And yet you made no comment about that. Also, your recent response to HistoryofIran, you stated, "However, I would assert that in all cases the phrase "culturally Persianate" is rather tautologous and unnecessarily redundant..". Apparently not when Qizilbash could not even be bothered to read the Lead, hell much less the culture section of this article! HA!

I have yet to see why Turco-Mongol is mentioned in the lead of the article. Turco-Mongol is scarcely referenced in this article and can only be linked to the ethnic origin of its founder. --Kansas Bear (talk) 12:43, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Actually I talked about Ag Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu. I don't think that the Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu states were Persianized. If you mean Persianization from a cultural point of view, that period is also considered to be the flourishing period of literature in Azerbaijani Turkish, and some rulers used this language (H. Javadi and K. Burrill, 1988, Iranica; Minorsky, 1954, Cambridge Universit Press).

I gave the example of a nation-state because I feel that some comrades consider medieval Iran to be a Persian nation-state and try to Persianize everything in geography to justify it. According to that Orientalist logic, the "Latin nation-state existed" in Europe for a long time. It is also obvious that this approach is a remnant of Arianism (Asgharzadeh, 2007, Mustafa Vaziri, 2014).--Qızılbaş (talk) 13:00, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

• "that period is also considered to be the flourishing period of literature in Azerbaijani Turkish, and some rulers used this language (H. Javadi and K. Burrill, 1988, Iranica; Minorsky, 1954, Cambridge Universit Press)."

Wow, that is so amazing! I am the one that added that reference to that article. HA!

What neutral sources do you have that support this "flourishing period of Azerbaijani literature? A discussion a couple of years ago on Beshogur's talk page . I have looked long and hard for neutral reliable sources for the Aq Qoyunlu usage of Azerbaijani language. So as the Aq Qoyunlu article stands right now, the weight of the information concerning culture points to a Persianate. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:46, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

• No. I oppose leaving "Persianite" as primary qualifier, and would even recommend omitting the word altogether as a narrow, rare and unfamiliar term. I'd write a separate phrase conveying the idea in clearer language. Certainly not primary. Walrasiad (talk) 23:01, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

• No I strongly oppose. No justification for spreading the adjective so generously all through out these articles. Imho the word is rather artificial, redundant and in fact, confusing. In all of my readings of relevant topics, I do not recall ever coming across it, not that I have read it all. Persian culture influenced would have been more descriptive if necessary and justified. Not in a lede or primary of course. In any case, Mogul Empire is a good example. Eastern Roman Empire is another good example.Murat (talk) 03:04, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

  @Hudavendigar: Would you mind changing the 'Oppose' to a 'No' for consistency with other 'No' votes? A closing admin may interpret an 'Oppose' vote as opposition to the RfC's OP. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 09:28, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

No justification, only the vast majority of WP:RS that supports it (WP:WEIGHT), which no one wants to address. Though this is what's typical of a RFC; guidelines get thrown out the window. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:27, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

For the record: user:Hudavendigar/Murat's last edits on Wikipedia prior to his comment here were made on 29 December 2022. His first comment after 4 months of inactivity were to support this RfC -- on the talk page of an article he had never edited before. I'd say that's a very interesting comeback venue after such a long hiatus. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:27, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the interest shown in my participation. I am a very long time editor, not an obsessive one though, and yes, I was away from these pages for a long while but due to changes in my life, I plan to contribute more. Especially these topics, which are of special interest. Stay well. Murat (talk) 02:18, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Per the sound policies and dozens of WP:RS cited by user:HistoryofIran. Its interesting to see that none of the users that espoused !Support votes have managed to rebuke any of these cited RS (see also: WP:VOTE). - LouisAragon (talk) 16:20, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

  There's no need for a rebuke. Most voters, including myself, aren't disputing that these countries were influenced by Persian culture or were Persianate. The issue is with using 'Persianate' as the primary descriptor for these countries. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 16:27, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

• "There's no need for a rebuke"

There is. Wikipedia is written using reliable sources. Said veteran user has cited numerous sources that attest to the empire and its key figures being deeply influenced by Persian culture. A large amount of aforementioned sources literally use the word "Persianate". That means it wasn't just "influenced" by it; it was deeply influenced by said culture, and it was a primary descriptor in terms of describing the culture the empire and its rulers radiated to the outside world. The users that are against the inclusion of said words haven "not" demonstrated that it wasn't Persianate/deeply influenced by Persian culture. Hence my assertion is correct. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:46, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran:@LouisAragon: Again, nobody denies that these Turkic polities all became culturally "Persianized" to some extent following their invasion and long occupation of Persian territory, and sources are indeed extensive to that effect. No problem with that. The only issue here is the systematic, stereotypical use of "Persianate" as the primary qualifier for all these polities in the first sentence of the lead, as shown in the 8 examples in my opening statement above, as if "Persianization" was their primary characteristic, surpassing everything else. As far as this RfC is concerned, I'm afraid nobody has shown that academics routinely use "Persianate" or "Persianized" as the primary descriptive when defining these polities. Even for the Timurid Empire, arguably the most culturally "Persianate" of all, introductory sentences such as "The Timurid Empire was a culturally Persianate...", "The Timurid Empire was a Persianate...", "The Timurid Empire was a Persianized..." (turns of phrase seen systematically in our articles), are virtually non-existent in the literature. Using "Persianate" as the primary descriptive of these polities seems quite WP:UNDUE, and it seems that Wikipedia has been promoting a type of formulation which is not supported by academics and appears quite WP:POV. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 16:58, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Did you seriously ping me so I could read more of your WP:REHASH? I'm not sure what "primary descriptive/qualifier" means to you, but if you expect sources to introduce info like Wikipedia articles for it to be valid, then you need to read more sources, especially when you carelessly (again) throw around the word WP:POV. And again, you need to prove that it's WP:UNDUE, which you were told almost a month ago. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:03, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Don't you think this is a bit strange?:

• "The Timurid Empire was a culturally Persianate".... 0 hits on Google Scholar
• "The Timurid Empire was a Persianate"... 0 hits on Google Scholar
• "The Timurid Empire was a Persianized"... 0 hits on Google Scholar
• "Timurids were Persianate" 0 hits on Google Scholar
• "Timurids were Persianized" 0 hits on Google Scholar
• "Timurids were Persianised" 0 hits on Google Scholar
• "Timurids were a Persianate"... 0 hits on Google Scholar
• "Timurids were a Persianized".... 0 hits on Google Scholar
• "Timurids were a Persianised".... 0 hits on Google Scholar

This is a fairly clear indicator that virtually no scholar ever uses such sentences: they are Wikipedia inventions/ neologisms/ WP:OR/ WP:SYNTH/ WP:OR/ WP:UNDUE. "Persianate" indeed applies to Timurid culture, and everybody is fine with that, but virtually no scholar uses "Persianate" or "Persianized" as the primary descriptive when defining or characterizing the Timurid Empire... "Persianate" or "Persianized" are best used in later sentences of the introduction/ article when discussing culture.पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 18:35, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

If you're gonna name drop guidelines, I expect you to explain why they're the case, as it makes zero sense to someone who actually knows the guidelines. Claiming that it's a "Wikipedia invention" shows you haven't read the sources nor its actual Wikipedia article, Persianate society. Also, it's rather odd to base this on how many hits it gives on Google Scholars, and doesn't disprove the multiple sources I posted. You do realize replacing those links with "Turko-Mongol" scarcely show any results, so by your logic, we should remove it too? No. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:48, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose As per HistoryofIran and Kansas Bear.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: I feel like there are some really obvious potential workarounds here, like, instead of saying "culturally Persianate" in front of the "X empire" part, say "X empire with Persianate characteristics, and then everyone can just go home happy right? Iskandar323 (talk) 19:04, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this should be easily resolved by adding a sentence about culture for example. In reality, their cultural characteristics are usually a mix between Turgo-Mongol traditions, and the adoption of Persian literature and arts or administration methods, and the proportions of the mix vary with each polity. For the Timurids specifically, a sentence such as "The empire was culturally hybrid, combining Turko-Mongolian and Persianate influences" could be sourced from:

• Timurids, The Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Columbia University Press. This cultural rebirth had a double character; on one hand, there was a renewal of Persian civilization and art (distinguished by extensive adaptations from the Chinese), and on the other, an original national literature in the Turk-Jagatai language, which borrowed from Persian sources.
• Subtelny, Maria (30 August 2007). Timurids in Transition: Turko-Persian Politics and Acculturation in Medieval Iran. BRILL. ISBN 978-90-474-2160-3. Turko-Mongolian ideals necessarily blended with Perso-Islamic concepts of legitimation. This resulted, as mentioned already, in the coexistence of many Turko-Mongolian practices alongside Perso-Islamic ones (...) Nevertheless, in the complex process of transition, members of the Timurid dynasty and their Turko-Mongolian supporters became acculturated by the surrounding Persianate millieu adopting Persian cultural models and tastes and acting as patrons of Persian language, culture, painting, architecture and music. At the same time, to preserve their Turkic cultural heritage, they promoted the use of a Chagatay (Eastern Turkic) language and literature that was written in the Arabo-Persian script, and even retained the symbolic used of the Turkic Uighur script.पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 19:38, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Back to square one (more WP:REHASH). Putting the Turco-Mongolian aspect on par with the Persian one is WP:UNDUE, even your second source somewhat demonstrates that. This is starting to look like WP:CIR. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:01, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't get what's causing problems here. Turko-Mongols was what they were as a people; Persianate here is a reflection of their societal attachments. Isn't this bog-standard common knowledge. E.g.: "... Timur belonged to a Turko-Mongol tribe named Barlas. ... It is interesting to note that various dynasties of Turks or Turko-Mongols, namely, the Ottomans, the Uzbeks and the Timurids ..." And here's a whole jstor entry on the Turko-Mongol monarchic tradition. Timur pops in on page 245, where it says: "Both Bayezit and Tamerlane were Turkic-speaking, non-Chinggissid Muslim rulers. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:28, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New so called flag in this article

There has been a flag newly added before a couple of months which is relied on the Timurid coins as it's source. I didn't delete this change in order not to start a start an author's conflict. Nevertheless, it can not be argued being accurate to be considered as the state flag but something to support the three circle symbol in the flag of the Timurid Empire since it has already known as a red flag with those three circle from the Catalan atlas and other contemporary and modern sources. I can give the "Catalan Atlas" as a contemporary source and a long and satisfying discussion about Timurid flag in "History, Polotics and Legacy, Amir Timur" by A. Ahad Andican. Further sources could be given easily. I want to appeal the change i mentioned above and bringing back the old Red and Black flag with three circle. Afshar-beg (talk) 12:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

There is no Timurid flag in the Catalan Atlas (1375), simply because the Timurid Empire does not appear in that map, probably because its creation was too recent (1370). Please check the Catalan Atlas article if in doubt. The only known symbol of the Timurids is the "Three annulets" symbol, per sources given in the article. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 13:03, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

It was not too recent because it had been at least 5 years. If you look carefully, you can see it is easily distinguishable from the other Eastern Chagatai flags with white colors in the Atlas. Also, the Transoxianian state, which Timur took over in 1370, was separated from the Eastern Chagatai Khanate in 1362. Therefore, it was not too recent and can be expected to use another flag to differentiate themselves from the Eastern Khanate, which we can also see in the Catalan Atlas. I believe that the three annulets issue was put forward just to be seen as an innovator, contributor, or trailblazer, and this mistake must be rectified immediately. Afshar-beg (talk) 21:23, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

There is no such flag in the Catalan Atlas (and no mention of Timur or the Timurid Empire either). See for yourself , and look at the sources. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 04:15, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

There is one flag similar to the commonly known timurid flag in the second page from righ. Afshar-beg (talk) 14:11, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I suppose you mean this flag , but this is the flag for China (Yuan dynasty), not the flag of the Timurids, which don't appear in the map. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

You were right. The flag in the Catalan Atlas was mistakenly considered the Timurid Empire's flag. However, I found a new and reliable source confirming that the Timurid Empire had a red flag. If it will change something, if there's a chance to bring the old Timurid flag back in this article, I am going to share the source wherever I should. Afshar-beg (talk) 19:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

@Afshar-beg:Please share your source here... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 19:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

We already know from many sources that the Timurid flag has the three annulets symbol on it, as Yuka Kadoi also stated. However, we have further information about the accuracy of widely accepted former flag that Zeki Velidi Togan, who has an indisputable reputation in the science of history and known with his works in Russia, Turkey and worldwide, confirms in his book "Turkestan, nowadays Türk-ili (original name: Türkistan, Bugünkü Türk-ili)". I have the book's second edition (1981) physically as paperback. The first edition, if I am not mistaken, was in 1945-1947. This book was also used by many notable historians such as Martin B. Dickinson and many which became sources of many Wikipedia and Encyclopedia of Islam articles. Afshar-beg (talk) 20:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Native name in Perso-Arabic Script

Hello @Nashville whiz, you recently reverted my edit in the infobox native name, so I opened this discussion to discussing about that. In my edit, I did change the name in Perso-Arabic script in infobox native name parameter. Is there any other place needing the change I missed? PadFoot2008 (talk) 12:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @PadFoot2008, I owe you an apology since it seems that I somehow missed that part. I'm restoring your edit. Take care, Nashville whiz (talk) 06:14, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

It's alright. Mistakes happen. Thanks! PadFoot2008 (talk) 06:23, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

A more accurate map of the Timurid State

I recently added a detailed map showing the greatest extent of the Timurid State and also stated that I can provide sources about any issue concering the map. However, my edit was reversed by पाटलिपुत्र without specifying any reason. I would like to either reapply my edit or be given a valid explanation. Afshar-beg (talk) 11:23, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi User:Afshar-beg. Your map seems quite inflated compared to standard published maps (such as this one). You would have to make a case that your version is the standard one... Best पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 11:57, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Sources per that map

Seeing someone else bring up that map again, I checked the video the map is from to see if the creator of the map did have any sources on it, and in the comment section he had an insane amount of them per that map.

I'll just copy paste it below for you to see. @HistoryofIran from here on the pinned comment:

---

- The Empire of the Steppes - René Grousset - Tarikh-i-Rashidi of Mirza Muhammad Haidar Dughlat - An Historical Atlas of Central Asia - Yuri Bregel - A History of Inner Asia - Svat Soucek - Mongols, Turks, and Others: Eurasian Nomads and the Sedentary World -BABUR NAMA (MEMOIRS OF BABUR - Translated from the original Turki Text of Zahiru'd-din Muhammad Babur Padshah Ghazi by ANNETTE SUSANNAH BEVERIDGE - History of Civilizations of Central Asia - Volume IV - Theage of achievement:A.D. 750 to the end of the fifteenth century - History of Civilizations of Central Asia- Volume V - Development in contrast: from the sixteenth tothe mid-nineteenth century - Manz, Beatrice Forbes, The Rise and Rule of Tamerlane. Cambridge University Press, 1989, ISBN 0-521-34595-2. - The Cambridge History of Iran - Volume 6 - The Timurid and Safavid Periods - Edited by Peter Jackson - Emir Timur Tarih, Siyaset, Miras- Prof. Dr. A. Ahat Andican - Encyclopedia of Mongolian and the Mongol Empire - Christopher P. Atwood - Timurids in Transition Turko-Persian Politics and Acculturation in Medieval Iran by Maria E. Subtelny - Yazdi Sharaf al-Din Ali, Zafarnama , Trad. in French by Petis de la Croix under the title “ Histoire de Timur Bec ”, II, 29 - MEDIEVAL PERSIA 1040–1797 - Second edition - David Morgan - THE MONGOLS AND THE DELHI SULTANATE IN THE REIGN OF MUḤAMMAD TUGHLUQ (1325—1351) - P. JACKSON - Central Asiatic Journal , 1975, Vol. 19, No. 1/2 (1975), pp. 118-157 - The Golden Horde and Its Fall Grekov B.D., Yakubovsky A. Yu. - TÜRK ANSİKLOPEDİSİ – cilt VIII - Timur ve Seferleri / Yrd. Doç. Dr. Gürsoy Solmaz - Onaltıncı yüzyılda Türk dünyası 1. (Özbek ve Kazak hanlıkları) MEHMET ALPARGU - Babur: Timurid Prince and Mughal Emperor, 1483-1530 by Stephen Frederic Dale - The Cambridge History Of India Volume III by Wolseley Haig - Power, Politics and Religion in Timurid Iran - Beatrice Forbes Manz - Timurlular Devleti Tarihi - Prof. Dr. İsmail Aka - Mirza Şahruh ve Zamanı (1405-1447) - Prof. Dr. İsmail Aka - TÜRK TARİH KURUMU- - Timurlular, Bozkırdan Cennet Bahçesine 1360-1506 - Hayrunnisa Alan - TDV Islam Ansiklopedisi - Encyclopedia of Islam The Jalayirids - Dynastic State Formation in the Mongol Middle East - Patrick Wing - Şeybani Özbek Hanlığı: Siyasi, İdari, Askeri ve İktisadi Yapı - Abdulkadir Macit - The 'Ancient Supremacy': Bukhara, Afghanistan and the Battle for Balkh, 1731-1901 (Jonathan Lee) - Bosworth, C. Edmund (2009). "ḴOTTAL". Encyclopædia Iranica, Online edition. Retrieved 6 May 2014. - State and Tribe in Nineteenth-Century Afghanistan: The Reign of Amir Dost Muhammad Khan (1826-1863) -Christine Noelle - Gibb, H.A.R. trans. and ed. (1971). The Travels of Ibn Baṭṭūṭa, A.D. 1325–1354 (Volume 3). London: Hakluyt Society. p. 571. - Приключения Шелкового пути (Silk Road Adventures) - faculty.washington edu - Silk Road Cities - ELENA PASKALEVA GABRIELLE VAN DEN BERG - Rickard, J (20 September 2010), Siege of Isfizar, 1383 - About Nickname of Kara Yülük Othman Beg - Fatma Akkuş Yiğit - Dil Araştırmaları Sayı: 16 Bahar 2015, 191-198 ss. - ENCYCLOPÆDIA IRANICA ATĀBAKĀN-E LORESTĀN - Prof.Dr.Yaşar YÜCEL, Anadolu Beylikleri Hakkında Araştırmalar II, TTK Basımevi, Ankara 1991 - History of Georgia, Vol. II, Tb. 2008 P. 89-90 - AZƏRBAYCAN MİLLİ ELMLƏR AKADEMİYASI - A. BAKIXANOV ADINA - TARİX İNSTİTUTU - AZƏRBAYCAN TARİXİ - XIII-XVIII əsrlər - YEDDİ CİLDDƏ - III CİLD - Mâzenderân’da Yerli Bir Aile: Celâvîler - MUSTAFA ŞAHİN- Iğdır University Journal of Social Sciences - Mamluk Cairo, a Crossroads for Embassies - Studies on Diplomacy and Diplomatics - Edited by Frédéric Bauden & Malika Dekkiche - Practising Diplomacy in the Mamluk Sultanate - Gifts and Material Culture in the Medieval Islamic World - Doris Behrens-Abouseif - Sharafnama by Sharafkhan Bidlisi – vol 1/ Şerefname - Cilt 1 - Kürt Tarihi - AKKOYUNLULAR VE ERZİNCAN (Uzun Hasan Devrine Kadar) Yrd. Doç. Dr. Ahmet TOKSOY - BBC News Uzbekistan profile – Timeline - Royal and historical letters during the reign of Henry the Fourth, king of England and of France, and Lord of Ireland by Hingeston, F. C. (Francis Charles), 1833-1910; Great Britain. Public Record Office - Vodyanskoye settlement // Encyclopedia of the Volgograd region - Encyclopaedia Iranica - balkh town and province - Ferghana Valley The Heart of Central Asia - S. Frederick Starr with Baktybek Beshimov, Inomjon I. Bobokulov, and Pulat Shozimov - Çağatay Hanlığı (1227 - 1345) - Prof. Dr. Mustafa Kafalı - The Pearson Indian History Manual for the UPSC Civil Services Preliminary Examination By Singh - İlhanlı Tarihi – Abdulkadir Yuvalı - نقش هرموز در تجارت عصر تيموري (The role of Hormuz in Timurid trade) - rasekhoon net - بازخوانی تاریخ/ملوک هرمز و یورش تیمور (Re-reading the history / king of Hormuz and the invasion of Timur) - tabnakhormozgan ir - تعیین حدود مغستان، خاستگاه ملوک هرموز (Determining the boundaries of Maghistan, the origin of the kings of Hormuz) - jhr ui ac ir -تعیین حدود مغستان، خاستگاه ملوک هرموز (Determining the boundaries of Maghista, the origin of the kings of Hormuz) - journals ui ac ir - La campagne de Timur en Anatolie (1402) by Marie-Mathilde Alexandrescu-Dersca - Essai sur la civilisation timouride - Lucien Bouvat - Anadolu Beylikleri ve Akkoyunlu, Karakoyunlu Devletleri - İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı - Rickard, J (28 April 2010), Battle of Kul-i-Malik, May 1512 Noorullah (talk) 00:34, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With that being said, should the new map be added per these rather insane amount of sources? Noorullah (talk) 00:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but this looks dodgy. They needed 50 sources (no pages (WP:CITE, WP:VER), some don't even seem WP:RS (used BBC news for example)) to create that map? --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:42, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Perhaps the map creator @Afshar-beg can provide some insight, he did seem willing to do so a month ago in a talk page post above this. Noorullah (talk) 00:46, 28 October 2023 (UTC)