Talk:Sakalava empire

help

@Zanahary Hi, I've been doing some work on this, I was wondering if you'd be interested (no worries if not)? One thing I'm confused about is the identity of the brother of Andriamanetriarivo who led the expansion south. Raymond Kent says he was Andriamandresi (pg 884), the founder of the Antesaka kingdom, but no-one else I've seen does this (it does line up w Antesaka tradition though). French-language sources I've seen vary a lot about where Andriamandresi comes in Menabe's genealogy. The thesis I've been using (cos it's the only comprehensive history focussed on the Sakalava I found) is pretty vague about the brother, just saying he established Toliara and incorporated the Adrevola of Fiherenana into the Maroserana dynasty. Also, Wiley's Encyclopedia of Empire says the empire was composed of three kingdoms, and that the expansion south established the kingdom of Fiherenana, but I can't find any sources discussing it (other than the source it's based on, Kent 1970, which mentions it as one of the three components but with no more detail) and other sources only mention Menabe and Iboina. (Randrianja's Madagascar: a short history skips past Sakalava's expansion)

There's also some little things, like I haven't been able to find anything definitive on Iboina's capital, bizarrely the only things I've found are two travel guide books which say it changed from Marovoay to Majunga, but give different dates 40 years apart. And another tiny thing is I can't find the Sakalava term for the title of monarchs. Apologies if this is a bit much, no worries if you're trying to avoid a headache lol Kowal2701 (talk) 20:39, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

Shit, this is so hard. It's where Malagasy studies (a black hole of information) and the study of empire (often established on sources pre-dating modern norms of verifiability and rigor in the absence of extensive primary documentation) come together to create a knot of contradictory sources. One option is to lay out all of the credible claims with in-text attribution. You could also reach out to any living authors of these sources with your inquiry. I'm afraid I'm unable to help now. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 03:36, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

No worries, that’s a good idea, I think I’m gonna attribute to Kent and then do a note elaborating on different opinions about Andriamandresi (if I can find them lol) Kowal2701 (talk) 06:58, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

Looking better? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:16, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. You can locate your hook here. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Earth605 talk 15:46, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the Maroserana expanded via the fatidra ceremony?

• Source: pg 91

• • Reviewed:
  • Comment: Thanks,

Created by Kowal2701 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Kowal2701 (talk) 07:32, 5 September 2025 (UTC).

• The hook as currently written does not meet WP:DYKINT as readers who do not know either the Sakalava empire nor what a fatidra ceremony are will not understand it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:49, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting: - n

QPQ: None required.

Overall: To give this an actual review rather than an unhelpful one-line dismissal: new enough, long enough, sourced and neutral. Yes, the current hook in its current form is not interesting, but that is an easily-remedied problem: either provide more explanation of the two terms in the hook, or propose something else—there is much else in the article that would do the trick Kowal2701, such as the temporary influx of pirates from the Caribbean half a world away, the proxy war between the French and British, or the continuing disputes over the ancestral relics into the 20th century. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:22, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

Thanks AirshipJungleman29, I'll add some alts below. Honestly I usually find it's the hooks I can't make sense of that I click on, but that might just be me. Lmk if these are any good

• ALT1: ... that despite the Sakalava fighting a conflict against the French, they found themselves allied to one another 50 years later? pgs 160 and 198
• ALT2: ... that the Sakalava allied and patronaged Caribbean pirates? pgs 118-120
• ALT3: ... that an exiled Sakalava monarch sold Mayotte to the French in exchange for an annual pension?
• ALT4: ... that there is a long-running dispute over the ownership of sacred ancestral relics from the Sakalava empire? pg 76

Kowal2701 (talk) 09:20, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

All of the new proposals sound good apart from maybe ALT2 due to being too vague. I have a personal preference for ALT1 and ALT3, although I will leave the final decision to AJ. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:55, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

Approving all new suggestions. Suggest adding location to the first two:

• ALT1a: ... that although the Sakalava empire of Madagascar fought a conflict against the French, they found themselves allied to one another 50 years later? pgs 160 and 198
• ALT2a: ... that the Sakalava empire of Madagascar gave patronage to pirates from the Caribbean? pgs 118-120

In which case my preferred hook is ALT2a. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:39, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

Happy to go with ALT2a, thanks guys Kowal2701 (talk) 08:41, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29 and Kowal2701: Reviewing for promotion, and pages 118-120 of the source does not specify that the pirates given patronage by the Sakalava empire were from the Caribbean (ALT2a); it mentions European but nothing more specific. Is there a different source for this aspect of the hook? Dclemens1971 (talk) 14:00, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

Hi Dclemens1971, page 105 of this book says the pirates came from the Caribbean. They were only there between 1690 and 1720. But if that's too SYNTHy, we can go with a different hook? Kowal2701 (talk) 18:59, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

@Kowal2701: I think that's a bit to SYNTHy for my taste, since the second source you give doesn't mention the Sakalava (at least on the page I can view). However, ALT3 is interesting, hook is verified and it's in the text, so I'll put the tick back on for that one. If another reviewer wants to promote ALT2a, I'll leave that to them to evaluate whether the sourcing is sufficient per DYKG. Dclemens1971 (talk) 19:09, 30 September 2025 (UTC)