Talk:Racecourse Ground

oldest film of a football match?

It is stated in the article that the filming of Wales vs Ireland in April 1906 is the oldest film of a football match in the world. If this is so why is film of the 1901 F A cup final available to watch on You Tube?

The plaque at the Racecourse says it’s “the earliest surviving film of a football international”. — Arwel Parry (talk) 01:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

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Sponsorship names

@Rhyswynne:, with respect, when the sponsorship deal was announced "STōk Cae Ras" was the designated Welsh name while "STōK Racecourse" was the designated English name as on signs on the stadium itself. Many online sources since adopted "STōK Cae Ras" over the English one, so both are used in English. While "Cae Ras STōK" is an unofficial Welsh name (which should be adopted though). It is not correct to say "STōK Cae Ras" is the English name nor "Cae Ras STōK" is the Welsh.

The club should correct it imo.

Also would like the sponsorship names re-added to the first sentence as like many other articles with them. DankJae 10:51, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

@DankJae I don't think I said "STōK Cae Ras" is the English name, but can it really be called a Welsh name if it doesn't follow basic Welsh grammar of the adjective (sponsor name in this case) following the noun? The club can name the stadium what they like, of course, I'd argue that "Cae Ras STōK" is the Welsh name if a sponsor is mentioned, see also Stadiwm y Mileniwm / Stadiwm Principality (Millennium Stadium / Principality Stadium), Stadiwm Swansea.com (Swansea.com Stadium), Stadiwm Aviva (Aviva Stadium) as examples of sponsored stadium names that are discussed frequently in Welsh.

I don't deny that "STōK Cae Ras" is used, but it's a mish-mash, or at best sort of language neutral. The BBC article you link to says "Its new name in Welsh is STōK Cae Ras." but the author of that possibly has no knowledge of Welsh or grammar or neither. The referenced article announcing it on the club's website now gives a 404 error message.

Having said all that...

I have to admit I've not been in the ground or gone past it since the sponsorship, but since starting this reply here I've just been searching for images online. I've seen this one that give equal prominence to both "STōK Cae Ras" and "STōK Racecourse" on the Mold Road stand. In that case, as this is the English Wikipedia, should more prominence be given to "STōK Racecourse"?

Infobox:

Use STōK Racecourse as native name|en with both "Welsh" versions beneath as nicknames labelled STōK Cae Ras and Cae Ras STōK (Welsh) or similar? I'm not keen on Cae Ras STōK being called an alternative Welsh name os that's the actual grammatically correct one.

End of first opening section:

Reorder to read something like the stadium is sometimes referred to as STōK Racecourse, STōK Cae Ras, or Cae Ras STōK.

or

the stadium is sometimes referred to as STōK Cae Ras, STōK Racecourse in English, or the grammatically correct Cae Ras STōK in Welsh.

or

the stadium is sometimes referred to as STōK Cae Ras, STōK Racecourse in English, or Cae Ras STōK, which follows Welsh grammar. (my preference!)

Club ownership, sponsorship rebranding (2022–present) section:

Current wording at the end:

the stadium was to be known by the sponsorship name "STōK Cae Ras", also referred as the "STōK Racecourse" in English. The sponsorship name was officially adopted on 1 July 2023. It is also referred to in Welsh as Cae Ras STōK.

Proposed minor reorder:

the stadium was to be known by the sponsorship name "STōK Cae Ras". It is also referred as the "STōK Racecourse" in English and Cae Ras STōK in Welsh. The sponsorship name was officially adopted on 1 July 2023.

Both "STōK Cae Ras" and "STōK Racecourse" are used in English, both "STōK Cae Ras" and "Cae Ras STōK" are used in Welsh, and I don't think the above contradicts that. What it does do is it avoids actually calling STōK Cae Ras a Welsh name/spelling.

First sentence:

As for the sponsorship names being re-added to the first sentence, I thought it was you who moved it! But as the stadium has two names as it is (Racecourse and Cae Ras) and then three possible other names when sponsorship is added, I'd say it'd get messy having five names in the opening sentence. Rhyswynne (talk) 14:59, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Noswaith dda @Rhyswynne, I guess this situation and multiple edits by us and @Oliver Phile made it all confusing, so apologies. I didn't move it out of the first sentence to the bottom of the lead, Oliver did, which I prefer was the other way round. Appears I missed that the word "also" was still there when editing on a cramped mobile editor.

"STōK Cae Ras" is used on its Welsh signage and yes Welsh-language sources so appears to be the official Welsh name not a hybrid even if in the wrong order. While you may deem another name as correct, the club don't unfortunately and given that as its Welsh name, and the club plays and now owns the stadium so they surely have more authority on its name. "grammatically correct" and "follows Welsh grammar" are a bit editorial to use without a source stating such. "Cae Ras STōK" would be unboldened as it is rarely used in English.

"STōK Cae Ras" is used by the club in English and by many English-language sources, appearing more common than the technically English one, hence why I gave it priority, but not opposed to switching it for the English first.

For the infobox, are you implying?

STōK Racecourse
STōK Cae Ras or Cae Ras STōK (Welsh)

or

all the sponsored names are moved under "nicknames" and having the unsponsored names at the top of the infobox?

The lead is tricky, still prefer if it is in the first sentence over the bottom of the lead, like Millennium Stadium, Wembley Stadium and City of Manchester Stadium largely do, especially the latter which seems fine with its long sentence. However open to unlabelling the languages to shorten it, leaving only tagging it and italicising it as such. Maybe like this?

known as STōK Cae Ras (also Cae Ras STōK) or STōK Racecourse for sponsorship reasons, is a

or if, like the infobox, putting the English name first,

known as STōK Racecourse (Welsh: STōK Cae Ras or Cae Ras STōK) for sponsorship reasons, is a?

Largely disagree with changing the body section, and the last lead has to be changed, as "Cae Ras STōK" is still an unofficial name not mentioned in the deal or recognised signage, so should be mentioned separately from the deal, even if grammatically correct. The actual sponsored names should be mentioned together, then the separate unsponsored one, to avoid implying the unofficial one was part of the deal or the official English one is less official.

So, if keeping it at the bottom of the lead, prefer:

renaming the stadium as STōK Cae Ras, also known as STōK Racecourse in English. It is also called Cae Ras STōK in Welsh.

(unless we switch for putting the English name first). The only other way is to contact the club and make them correct the name. Diolch DankJae 20:50, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Ignoring the grammar question for a moment, the club seems inconsistent in using separate names on bilingual signage, but on its English-only website it uses the 'non-English' version. That's the reason I’d argue STōK Cae Ras is being treated as a language-neutral name. But, on reflection, maybe it's best to leave things as they are, but to just unbolden Cae Ras STōK in text body inline with style guide, which I wasn’t aware of.

With regard to the mentioning of grammar being editorialising, surely this is just stating factual information, the whole point of an encyclopedia and would go some way to help explain why there are different variants of the name. I'm unlikely to find a source on the clubs website saying “X is our Welsh name but Y is the grammatically correct one” as they think it's fine as it is, but the section on the Wikipedia article about Welsh syntax could be linked to (the relevant bit, with my emphasis, is “Determiners precede the noun they modify, while adjectives generally follow”). I'd imagine this would be of interest to some readers. (On a related grammar note, which I don't propose we mention in the article you'll be glad to hear, the Google Street View link you shared showing a bilingual sign has another grammatical error where the word ‘lolfa’ is misgendered, and the preceding adjective should have a soft mutation!) Rhyswynne (talk) 16:26, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

@Rhyswynne, I still argue that the club is merely using the Welsh name in English, which doesn't make the name less Welsh and more English, just like "Cae Ras" itself has also been used in English before the sponsorship.

I don't disagree that the other Welsh name is more inline with Welsh syntax, but still best for some source to back it up. "grammatically correct" and "which follows Welsh grammar" seems a bit lecturing, hence my comment on it being a bit editorialising. Surely for such a club and its stadium with a lot of coverage in Wales and beyond, is there no Welsh-language source that even mentioned the name issue? The source can do the editorialising, we cannot though. Perhaps it was intentional, balancing a sponsor's wish to promote their name first and the club's wish for the Welsh name to be the main name? It indeed can also be an error like misgendering lolfa, although one word on a sign is more likely a typo compared to the name of the whole stadium which would be too careless and surely would have been noticed? But without a source correcting it or someone telling the club to correct it and doing it themselves, we don't know, so it is best to stick to describing how the names are used, rather than which one is correct or should be used, especially compared to what the club use themselves.

Will unbold the other Welsh name. But still what about the infobox? DankJae 22:56, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

I don't feel there's a need for the sponsor name in the infobox. Sponsor names change frequently; the ground itself has had the same name for over a century. I would be completely at ease with not mentioning the sponsor name at all in the lead, and moving mention of the sponsorship into the body. Oliver Phile (talk) 12:30, 20 May 2025 (UTC)