Talk:Photography in Sudan/GA2

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 16:33, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Happy to review this one, I'll come back in a few days.

GA1 Review

The first thing I have to do to ensure all the comments in the previous review have been addressed. I'll let you know when I 've done that. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:50, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

GA1 now checked, and almost all of the comments have been addressed. I start on GA2. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:36, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Review

Links

Links—lead section

• Unlink documentation; inventory.
• 'Modern art', not Modern Art?

Links—Colonial period - from pictures of 'natives' to real people

• Unlink Ethiopia; Austria; explorer (see MOS:OL).
• Link German (German language); Mahdist (Ansar (Sudan)); prisoner of war; entrepreneur.
• Remove Major-General (ranks are not included in articles).
• the Mahdist forces – shouldn’t be linked (already done).
• In 'Accompanying the Anglo-Egyptian conquest of Sudan', unlink Anglo-Egyptian conquest of Sudan (duplicated link).
• Remove Nuba people (duplicated link).
• Remove sub-Saharan Africa (it’s within a quote).
• The link National Geographic needs to be in italics.

Links—Post-independence (1956-2010)

• Link Bamako.
• Remove Nuba mountains; Leni Riefenstahl (duplicated links).
• The links to The Last of the Nuba and The People of Kau need to be in italics.
• Remove photo essays (duplicated link).
• Quote marks not needed in The vulture and the little girl.

Links—The 2010s and beyond

• Remove African Photography Encounters (duplicated link).
• The link for DAL Group goes to the wrong article.
• Link MTN (MTN Group ); Zain (Zain Sudan);

Links—Contemporary photographers

• Remove fine-art photography; AFP (duplicated links).
• I would red-link Mohamed Nureldin Abdallah and Ashraf Shazly.

Pause

Hi Munfarid1, please could you sort out these links issues first of all? I'll check they are done in 3-4 days' time (19 March). Then i will continue to the References. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 10:28, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Amitchell125, thanks, I have already taken care of all your comments. Best, Munfarid1 (talk) 16:27, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

References

• MOS:CAPS - you need to remove the capital letters in Refs 3, 4, 12, 20, 21, 22, 30, 31, 32, 34, 46, 52.

I didn't know that we have to change capitalisation in quoted article names, but have now changed this. - In Ref 52, however, I only can find CNN, which is a company name that cannot be changed. And in Ref 46, I can't see any capitalisation to change. - Might I have overlooked anything there?

• The following references have broken links, which need to be fixed (or the citation replaced): Refs 1, 29, 45, 46, 47, and 62 seems to go to the wrong page.

More comments to follow.

Hello again, I have fixed or replaced the broken links, and changed the last few unnecessary capitals I could find. The link to ref. 45 goes to an archived version, where a form to enter one's email address for a newsletter appears. But if one closes that form, anyone can access the archived version. - I hope that is acceptable. At the end, I double checked all references you mentioned.;) Munfarid1 (talk) 11:23, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

N Refs 46 and 47 ( "Where the White Nile and the Blue Nile Meet | Contemporary And". www.contemporaryand.com (in German). Retrieved 26 November 2019.) and ( "Mugran foto week 2016: "Modern Times" - Qantara.de". Qantara.de - Dialogue with the Islamic World. Retrieved 20 March 2021.) still not found. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Ref 46 actually refers to this link, not the one in ref 1 you mentioned: https://web.archive.org/web/20191210070730/https://www.contemporaryand.com/de/magazines/launch-of-the-first-phase-of-the-survey-on-photography-training-and-learning-initiatives-on-the-african-continent/ - It works fine on my pc...

I have replaced ref 47 with a new link to the same event, but on a different webpage: https://en.qantara.de/content/mugran-foto-week-2016-modern-times - It works fine on my pc... Munfarid1 (talk) 09:41, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Ref 65 not found. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:35, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

At 11:26 today, I have replaced ref 46 with the re-used ref 1, as this article contains the necessary information. - I hope, that was the solution. (I actually had to refresh my browser in order to make sure, that I have the latest version...) Munfarid1 (talk) 10:31, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I see from the history, that you had to change some of the capitals. Sorry for that, - when I had changed them yesterday or the day before, there seems to have been a breakdown of my wifi access, and so my changes seem not to have been saved. - I guess things like this unfortunately happen sometimes, but together, we will succeed in finishing this and make it a GA. Munfarid1 (talk) 09:53, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

No worries! Amitchell125 (talk) 10:43, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

• You need to go through each of the references to ensure they are formatted in the same way.

In particular,

• the author needs to be accredited where this is known (e.g. Ref 1, the author is Aïcha Diallo);
• I would include the Wikipedia article for the author, if its exists (e.g. link Heather J. Sharkey in Ref 2);
• the name of the website is not included in the title, and the website's url shouldn't be shown (e.g. "Where the White Nile and the Blue Nile meet | Contemporary And". www.contemporaryand.com. Retrieved 27 November 2019. becomes "Where the White Nile and the Blue Nile Meet". Contemporary And. Retrieved 27 November 2019);
• The web page's title needs to be the same in the article (e.g. Ref 12 "Explore the Royal Collection online" should read 'Khartoum 1898 c.1899');
• Web pages titles are not always copied in an identical way into the article (e.g. "Special Collections : The Sudan Archive..." should read "Special Collections: The Sudan Archive...");

If in doubt, I consult this. I have done Refs 1 & 2 here to show what I mean by the above comments, please send me a message if I have not been clear enough, or if you want some help with this. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:34, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks again, and also for the links and examples. This is the most complex revision I have ever done, but thanks to your help, we will hopefully finish this soon. I have again checked and corrected all references, and hope, they will be according to the rules of style. Munfarid1 (talk) 15:37, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work, Munfarid1. Hopefully once the style issues are sorted, the rest will fall into place. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:47, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

N The references do not appear to have been corrected, all the website ones need to be written in the same way: (author (if there is one); date (if there is one); title (linked to the url); website name (not linked); date retrieved,

e.g. Diallo, Aïcha (2020). "Where the White Nile and the Blue Nile Meet". Contemporary And. Retrieved 27 November 2019.

{{cite web |url= |title= |author=<!--Not stated--> |date= |website= |publisher= |access-date= |quote=}} is the best way to do this. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:34, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Hello again, finally I have found time to add available data to all the references and notes.

Regarding your suggestion to redlink the names of Mohamed Nureldin Abdallah and Ashraf Shazly, I don't think that there are enough sources available at the present to warrant a separate article for them.

Finally, some other Wikipedian has put the pictures of contemporary photographers at the end in a gallery. I quite like this idea and have added two more.

One more question about the best way to include and cite webpages: I always use the visual editor's pop-up box and thought up to now that all that is extracted is enough, which I now learned it is not. - Is there an easier way to extract all necessary information for references from webpages? - I hope that now everything is allright and am looking forward to your next remarks. Munfarid1 (talk) 14:24, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

External links

• Consider using {{Commons category|Photographs of Sudan}} instead of {{Commonscatinline}}.
• 155 historical photographs by Richard Buchta – remove or amend the number as the website seems to have been updated.
• Library of Congress Digital Collections: Matson (G. Eric and Edith) Photograph Collection, with 186 images, almost all taken in 1936 should read ‘Photographs of Sudan from the Matson (G. Eric and Edith) Photograph Collection, almost all taken in 1936’.
• 'Photographs from the Sudan Historical Photography Archive' - use http://sudanphoto.uofk.edu/en/photos.html and amend to ‘A selection of photographs from the Sudan Historical Photography Archive, held by Khartoum University’.
• Only Claude Iverné: Bilad es Sudan, a 2017 exhibition of images has to be linked.
• Only Claude Iverné, Alice Franck. Khartoum, Capitale en Mutation has to be linked. Also add ‘(in French)’.
• Only A history of the Sudans – in pictures since independence has to be linked.
• The many faces of modern Sudan - in pictures also needs the name of the newspaper and the date.
• Only Many Rivers, One Nile needs to be linked. Also add from YouTube.
• Only City in Change needs to be linked. Also add from YouTube.
• Mugran Photo Encounter, documentary video about exhibitions of creative photography, Mugran Foto Week 2015. The second link needs to be removed (and the identical link above it), as they are included in the References section.

Further reading

• The sources listed in this section need to consistently formatted as in the Notes section. I have done the first two for you, but you need to do the others in the same way. I would recommend using Template:Cite book and Template:Cite journal.

Contemporary photographers

• It's difficult to know why this section is on the same level as 'The 2010s and beyond'. It makes more sense for the title to be in the same style as 'Commercial challenges and political expression' above it.
• Some of the notable contemporary Sudanese photographers, and Other notable photographers – who says they are notable?
• the early 21st century – which years are you referring to?
• Reuters multimedia news – just 'Reuters'.
• imaginary fine-art photography – needs clarifying (some readers might think he only imagines it).
• and the female photographers – delete this, as there is no reason why these photographers should be singled out for their gender. I would list all the photographers here in alphabetical order.

I have followed your suggestions, with two exceptions:

1) I think mentioning that some of the photographers are female is important and in line with WikiLovesWomen, the project to counter systemic bias. Also, some readers may think that women are not represented as photographers in a country like Sudan, so this mention also helps to clarify their activity as actively participating in public life, arts and media.

2) The picture by Okasha (I want to give credit to all photographers by naming them.) has obvious similarities to the earlier black-and-white picture of another woman with scarifications. In my view, placing it as a thumbnail picture makes this similarity clearer than just tucking it into the gallery.

@Munfarid1: 2 - OK; 1 - whilst I agree with what you are saying, I don't think adding the women in a list after the men is quite right either. How about listing the women first, then the men? Amitchell125 (talk) 14:00, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Done, you will see that I have first listed the women, where at least some of the names should be obvious to English readers, and then the men. No need to mention that the first group are female now, I think. This might be the end of our successful cooperation? :) Regards, Munfarid1 (talk) 15:50, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for this better layout!

• As a suggestion, the gallery might look better if the images were in a different template, ‘Multiple images’. See below, and use it if you want.

Fishing on the river Nile, by Eythar Gubara

Modern schools in Sudan, by Ola Alsheikh

The Challenge soccer team, by Metche Jaafar

Man of the modern world by Mohamed Nureldin Abdallah, 1994

3.1 Digital photography: a new generation

• The image from this section does not seem to fit with the section (Okasha is not mentioned in the text). I would move the image to the gallery at the end of the article.
• The title could be shortened to simply 'Digital photography'.
• As in other countries, the spread – just ‘The spread’.
• they decided to focus seriously – weren’t they serious before? Perhaps 'more seriously' instead of 'seriously'.
• Amend 'invited professional photographers' to ‘professional photographers, invited…’.
• and other African countries – can’t go here, as Germany is not an African country. I would amend the sentence to include the names of the other countries.
• repeated for several years is too vague, please give the exact years.
• Make it clearer what you mean by setting up workshops, perhaps by saying ‘setting up workshop sessions’.
• Replace Out of these efforts for continued training with ‘From this training’.
• Since then, some of the largely self-taught photographers have been invited to international exhibitions like the African Photography Encounters in Bamako, and some of the photographers have received grants to study abroad. This could be amended to 'Some of the photographers have been invited to international exhibitions such as the African Photography Encounters in Bamako. Some photographers have received grants to study abroad.' The next sentence is better written as ‘ Sudanese photographers have been involved with the Centers of Learning for Photography in Africa (CLPA), an independent network whose aim is to facilitate exchange between photographers of curriculum development and teaching methods.'

More to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:01, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

3.2 Commercial challenges and political expression

• An important limiting factor – whose says it is important?
• Noteworthy companies – remove ‘Noteworthy’.
• Sudan's largest commercial enterprise is off-topic” and should be deleted.
• Avoid using especially.
• as well as major Internet service providers like MTN, or Zain. - this should be amended to something like 'and Internet service providers such as MTN and Zain'.
• Delete nowadays (see MOS:RELTIME).
• with all kinds of photography, ranging from street photography to fine-art photography or even experimental photography. A few issues here, as it’s not clear what other forms of photography exist within the range. Why even? How can you experiment with experimental photography? The sentence could be written to say something like ‘Despite such constraints, Sudanese freelance photographers have experimented with street photography and fine-art photography.'
• Ref 54 – You should add which part of the YouTube clip verifies the text in the article.
• After the changes in public life due to the – simplify to ‘After the’.
• are opening up – have opened up. Also, this sentence requires a reference.

I think the examples in the next sentence and their reference bear ample witness to these new ways.

• Note 11 requires a proper reference, as it is a quote.

After many attempts in finding the right way to include a ref in a note, I hope this way is acceptable, or is there a better way to include this reference?

Otherwise, I have included all the other changes. Looking forward to your next feedback! :) Munfarid1 (talk) 14:01, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Done for you. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:26, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

• The importance of photographs for expressions of political participation became evident by the iconic picture of Sudanese student Alaa Salah... – improve the English by rewriting to something like ’An example of photography used to illustrate political participation in Sudan was the smartphone image of student Alaa Salah’, taken by amateur photographer Lana Haroun during the 2019 protests.
• Combine the last two paragraphs, as they are both short, and they are connected.

Pausing the review now, to allow you to address the above comments before I continue. Please make a comment if there if something you disagree with or would like me to explain further. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 09:32, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I will try to amend your latest comments asap. With combined efforts and your expertise, we are getting close to finishing this job, I hope. Munfarid1 (talk) 10:07, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

2.1 Sudan Historical Photography Archive – documenting social changes

• The title is too long, I would simplify it to ‘Sudan Historical Photography Archive’.
• This section and the following one are in my opinion better swapped around.

I have tried to go from the general information about the archive, which covers the 1950s and 60s, to the chronological description of the development of photography. - Doesn't this make more sense?

That makes sense, but the title 'Sudan Historical Photography Archive' at the top makes it look as if it is part of the chronology. I would delete the title 'Sudan Historical Photography Archive', but keep the text there. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:50, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

N not yet resolved. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:16, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Okay, done. Thanks for the italics in the quote. Munfarid1 (talk) 08:06, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

2.2 The Golden Years of photography (1950s–1980s)

• have been described as a prolific period – who described it as such?

The article by the Sharjah Art Foundation referenced at the end of this sentence says: "This period also witnessed extremely dynamic and creative activities in all fields of cultural and artistic production" - Should I explicitly mention this article or its authors?

The authors. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:51, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• performing artsis followed by quote marks, not a full stop.
• are presented in English with can all be replaced by the word ‘'have'’.
• I would should shorten the longest sentence. photo archive Elnour, such as Abbas Habiballah … could be amended to ‘photo archive Elnour. The photographers described include Abbas Habiballah ...’
• I’m not sure what Richard Lokiden Wani or Shogui. means.

These are the names of other photographers in the Elnour archive. - Should we shorten this list of names by saying: "... and others."?

OK. AM

• Amend talks to ‘talked’; have also been included to ’have been included’.
• The last sentence needs to be copy edited to something like ‘At the 6th African Photography Encounters held in Bamako in 2005, Sudan gained recognition for the quality of its photography when it was featured with a range of photographs from 1935 to 2002.’

All done.

N top comment seems still not to be addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:05, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

2.3 Riefenstahl's photo books on the Nuba peoples

• Amend the 60s and 70s to ‘the 1960s and 1970s’; similarly, amend the 20s and 30s.
• Amend she was over 60 years of age to ‘she was over 60’.
• Amend German photographer Leni Riefenstahl's to ‘Riefenstahl's’.
• Amend of Nuba people to ‘of the Nuba peoples’ (to match the title of the section).
• The first sentence is too long, and needs to be broken down into several shorter sentences.

Done

• Both photo books became international bestsellers and attracted much attention to the archaic lifestyle of these ethnic groups in difficult accessible regions of Sudan could be simplified to ‘Both photo books became international bestsellers'.

I have shortened this sentence, too, but have left the description "and attracted much attention to the archaic lifestyle of these ethnic groups." as I think this is important information for anyone reading this section, who is not already well informed about these photographs. After all,these photo books have found the widest attention and critical discussion relating to photographs of Sudan.

No worries. AM

• Perhaps the most well-known critical reaction to Riefenstahl's photography of the Nuba ... sounds like your own opinion. Why not simply say ‘A critical reaction to Riefenstahl's photography of the Nuba’?
• her widely read essay should simply be written ‘her essay’.
• Unlink orgiastic, as it is within a quotation.

Done.

More to follow. AM

2.4 Travel photography and photojournalism

Most of the comments below are about the prose, which needs to be copy edited to improve it.

• Delete so-called and illustrated.
• The first sentence is too long.
• do not only apply to professional photographers – why not?
• social repercussions - can you provide examples of the social repercussions?
• Amend the numbers of tourists, taking photos rather than really observing or interacting to ‘the numbers of tourists not observing or interacting’.
• Amend to professional photographers to ‘to professionals’.
• visually documented – ‘visually’ is redundant and can be removed.
• Remove extensively (MOS:PEACOCK).
• Simplify is extensively presented online on Google's website Arts & Culture to ‘is presented on Google's Arts & Culture'.
• providing viewers all over the world with an artistic impression of South Sudan adds nothing to the article and can be removed.
• Too many peacock words in Similar photos of the Dinka and their cattle are also part of renowned Brazilian photographer Sebastião Salgado's well known images of archaic lifestyles in Eastern Africa. Simplify it to ‘Similar images form part of Brazilian photographer Sebastião Salgado's work depicting archaic lifestyles in Eastern Africa.’
• Simplify As many people in some regions of Sudan have been suffering to ‘Because the Sudanese have suffered’.
• Amend frequently covered to ‘covered’.
• and published for the rest of the world is redundant and can be deleted.
• Amend The departments for public relations of the big UN agencies like UNMIS, the United Nations Mission in Sudan for Peacekeeping, WHO or UNICEF, for example, to ‘UNMIS, the United Nations Mission in Sudan for Peacekeeping, WHO,and UNICEF’.
• Amend usually employ professional photographers from abroad for their photo reports to ‘usually employ their own professional photographers’.
• Delete In some cases, however, as it is redundant.
• Change this harrowing picture to ‘this picture’, which you have already described as shocking.
• called is redundant.
• According to questions about this assignment, is redundant.
• which had raised many concerns about the ethical behaviour of the photographer and the publishers. - what sort of concerns?

Thanks again, I have just taken care of this and hope, my own changes in explaining your last question are sufficient. Munfarid1 (talk) 14:25, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

1.1 Earliest photographs, taken by foreigners

• I would consider amending the title to something shorter, e.g. Early foreign photographers.
• present a number should read ‘have a number’.
• of British military or other officials should read ‘’ British military and civilian officials’.
• in his album of 232 silver gelatin print photographs, entitled 'Khartoum 1898'. should read ‘in Khartoum 1898, his album of 232 silver gelatin print photographs.’.
• Elsa Yvanez, Sudanese clothing through the modern lens – the title should be in italics.

All done, except the italics, which I added to the source code, but don't show up in the visual or published version. - Maybe because of the template for the quote?

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:25, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

1.2 George Rodger and his photo stories of the Nuba and Latuka

• Imo the title should read ‘George Rodger’s photographs of the Nuba and Latuka’.
• in the widely read magazine National Geographic. should read ‘in National Geographic.’.
• No dash in - In the 1960s.

More to follow. AM

All done

1.3 The first Sudanese photographers

• WWII should be written in full, e.g. ‘the Second World War’.
• No dash in - Commenting on the important change.

All done

On hold

Hi, I'm placing the article on hold for a week until 13 April to allow you enough time to address the above comments. Thank you for everything you have done so far, Munfarid1. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:57, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to you, too, for all your help and patience. I am doing this mainly to document the fascinating history of photography in Sudan, and have learned a lot about its history and the Western view through the lens and relevant publications. - Looking forward to your next remarks. Munfarid1 (talk) 18:43, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

We're close, just a couple of points still need to be sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:26, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Passing now

Passing the article now, congratulations and thanks for all your work. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:21, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, you also have invested a huge amount of attention, expertise and assistance into our common effort to make this article better. - I will submit it for DYK and hope, many people will read this. For anyone interested in how photographers represent and influence public awareness of this country, this should be worthwhile reading. Munfarid1 (talk) 21:27, 10 April 2021 (UTC)