Talk:Palestine (region)/Archive 15

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Footnote

Recently, there have been several reverts as to whether to include the more common name "אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל, romanized: ʾEreṣ Yiśrāʾēl" in the first footnote. On 10:10, 5 November 2025, I proposed a compromise which seemed to be accepted by the various players and stood for over a month, but on 20:40, 8 December 2025 it was reverted. I feel strongly that it should included in the first footnote, as this is the word used to refer to the region in 99% of Hebrew language sources. How do others feel? Nehushtani (talk) 08:26, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

Going to be undoing this edit. The Eretz Israel terminology is already mentioned in the first note in the infobox where the two full Hebrew names appear and where it is properly contextualized. Eretz Israel is not a synonym for the region of Palestine. And the article doesn't need two of the first three notes to mention it. Tiamut (talk) 08:43, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

@Tiamut -

1. The first chapter of Krämer, Gudrun. A History of Palestine: From the Ottoman Conquest to the Founding of the State of Israel (PDF). Princeton University Press. "In the context of the Jewish-Arab conflict over Palestine, places and place-names have acquired great significance to all efforts to legitimize particular historical rights to the land. To be able to establish the names of things serves as one of the most telling indicators of political and cultural power. For this reason the various terms used to designate the land of “Palestine” are instructive, reflecting as they did the dominant perspective and by the same token prevailing power relations. ... The Jewish claim to Palestine as the “Land of Israel” (Eretz Yisrael) bases itself on biblical narratives and asserts the unbroken presence of the Jewish people in this land and their bond to it. The Arab claim, meanwhile, calls into question the uninterrupted presence of Jews, and points to Arab roots dating back over a millennium. Some will refer to the Canaanites, who settled in the land before the Israelites, as their own ancestors."
2. Troen, S. Ilan. “Israeli Views of the Land of Israel/Palestine.” Israel Studies 18, no. 2 (2013): 100–114. https://doi.org/10.2979/israelstudies.18.2.100. "Zionists customarily called the land to which they returned “Eretz Israel” [Land of Israel], as it is termed in sacred texts. “Palestine” is the name applied by the Romans in the second century c.e., in their attempt to terminate the connection between rebellious Jews and their land. The value of historical connection in naming territory was appreciated by the ancients, no less than by the moderns. In designating the country “Palestine,” they deliberately linked the land to the Philistines, who had once lived largely along part of the coast and in some inland sections. The Romans thereby punished the Jews for challenging their authority and attempted to eradicate the country’s living Jewish heritage. Perhaps Greek, rather than indigenous Semitic, origins, would sever the identity of the country from its long-established Jewish inhabitants, who had lived, with only several interruptions, as an independent polity for well over a thousand years and had roots going on two millennia, from the time Abraham was believed to have made his Covenant with his Lord."

The two terms refer more or less to the same physical area, but are used in different periods and cultures. In my opinion, we should keep the version that was long-standing until recently and mentioned only Eretz Israel in the Hebrew, as is used in 99% of Hebrew sources. I proposed a compromise to use both terms in the first note, which stood for over a month. I feel very strongly that having only Palestina in the Hebrew is inaccurate and a violation of NPOV. Either way, please come and discuss rather than simply reverting. Nehushtani (talk) 11:48, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

There is a page on Land of Israel, the English translation of Eretz Israel. In the Land of Israel#Etymology and history section, it explains that this is a biblical concept, imbued with different meanings that transcend territoriality. For most of the history of the term, it was not used to refer to a region per se. We already note in this page in the first note that this term is often preferred today for use in Hebrew and display two Hebrew names in the infobox.

I think this prominence in the infobox is actually undue, especially given that Eretz Israel has its own page. We should actually remove this info and note from the infobox and add it to the note in the first sentence of the article. Tiamut (talk) 12:53, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

I don't think the presence of "Land of Israel" in the infobox is undue. Eretz Israel certainly has religious and ideological meanings, the English term "Land of Israel" is also widely used in modern academic literature as a secular, academic geographic designation for the same area referred to as Palestine or the southern Levant. This is not a fringe or marginal usage. The terms "Land of Israel" and "Eretz Israel" appear tens of thousands of times in Google Scholar (92,800 and 48,100 times respectively), including in works that are not concerned with biblical theology or the conceptual history of the term, but with archaeology, social history, demography, and political history of the region.

Some scholarly titles use formulations such as "Land of Israel/Palestine" explicitly as parallel or interchangeable geographic descriptors (e.g., Zionist settlement in the land of Israel/Palestine; Israeli views of the land of Israel/Palestine‏).

In other cases, "Land of Israel" is used without qualification as a neutral regional label, for example in works like:

• Hellenism in the Land of Israel‏ (published by University of Notre Dame Press)
• The advent of the age of Iron in the Land of Israel: a review and reassessment‏ (published by the Institute of Archaeology of Tel Aviv University through Taylor & Francis)
• Ancient Jewish art and archaeology in the land of Israel‏ (published by Brill)
• The bedouin of the land of Israel—settlement and changes‏ (published by Urban Ecology)
• The political and social history of the Jewish community in the land of Israel, c. 235–638‏. (published by Cambridge University Press)

In these contexts, the term clearly functions as a secular name for the same physical region discussed elsewhere as Palestine, not as a purely biblical or non-territorial concept. Historically, this parallel usage is also visible in the British Mandate period, when official coins and documents displayed "Palestine" alongside "E.I" (Eretz Israel) as a name for the same polity under British rule, showing recognition of the two names for the same territory.

Removing "Land of Israel" would risk understating a well-documented and widely attested alternative name for the region. A brief clarification in a note about its different connotations may be appropriate, but excluding it would not accurately reflect its documented use in reliable secondary sources. It would be also against our policy on WP:NPOV. Rafi Chazon (talk) 13:24, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

You are missing the point. If we add Land of Israel as an alt name here, then we should logically merge this article with Land of Israel. And Promised Land and Holy Land.

These terms are a heavily overlapping Venn diagram of concepts. Personally I have always felt our readers would be better served by having everything explained in one place. But consensus is not possible on an appropriate name for the combined article.

Onceinawhile (talk) 14:48, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Hello Onceinawhile, so good to see you again. Yes, this is what I was trying to get at. You have explained the interrelationship between the terms rather well, but if one wants to insist they are in fact interchangeable synonyms, then they should be merged. I don't see them that way and neither does the scholarship, despite the examples presented by Rafi. Indeed, the section in Land of Israel I pointed to explains the difference. And while there are actual geographic maps documenting Palestine as a region (mostly of Syria), only biblical maps exist portraying "the land of Israel" or the land of the 12 tribes. Not synonyms. Tiamut (talk) 17:45, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Also the infobox is not a place for information in need of contextualization. That is better dealt with in article space and its associated footnotes. Including Eretz Israel in the infobox for this page, when it has its own, is actually really weird and confusing to our readers. Tiamut (talk) 17:48, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

The second sentence of Land of Israel reads "Related biblical, religious, and historical English terms include the Land of Canaan, the Promised Land, the Holy Land, and Palestine." There is no reason to include Palestine in Land of Israel and not the other way around. It is due and needs to be included here. Nehushtani (talk) 07:02, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

The third sentence here reads similarly: "Other names for part or all of this region include Canaan, the Promised Land, the Land of Israel, the Holy Land, and Judea." So why do we need multiple footnotes and Hebrew name for Land of Israel in the infobox here? Its not necessary. We should remove it & move the footnote there to after "Land of Israel" in the introductory paragraph. Tiamut (talk) 08:40, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Made this edit. No content was removed. Just moved the Hebrew name for [s article [Land of Israel]] out of the infobox and transferred the related material in the footnote there to the first mention of Land of Israel in the introduction of the main body of the article. Tiamut (talk) 09:04, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

@Tiamut - I strongly object to this recent change of yours. The common name for the region is ארץ ישראל. We could remove פָּלֶשְׂתִּינָה and use only ארץ ישראל, or we can include both. Including only פלשתינה is inappropriate. Either way, please self revert to the long-standing version and discuss rather than edit warring. Nehushtani (talk) 09:14, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I self-reverted> Its not edit warring to make a change. I repeat that the title of this article is Palestine (region) and not Land of Israel. My edit was appropriate to the page contents and deleted none of the material, only removed the Hebrew name "Land of Israel" from the infobox, while retaining the transcription of "Palestine" and all footnotes pertaining to both. Shall we open an RfC? Because I strongly believe including the Hebrew name for another already existing article in the infobox of this article is inappropriate and gives undue prominence to the concept here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiamut (talk • contribs) 11:29, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I have just seen this discussion, as I was never tagged despite my edit being mentioned. In the future, please make sure to ping the editors involved, which in this case are @Skitash: and me. Since there is now an RfC for this, I will add my comments there. Paprikaiser (talk) 21:03, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Old map

@ADeeperUnderstanding: Your comment said that the map you readded is "aligned with current scholarship". Please could you provide a source confirming that claim? Onceinawhile (talk) 14:33, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 January 2026

Change title of article from Palestine (region) to Palestine ~2026-20617-1 (talk) 11:47, 10 January 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: to request a page move, follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Requested moves. — SimmeD (talk) 12:13, 10 January 2026 (UTC)

RfC regarding including of Land of Israel

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

(non-admin closure) There's consensus to exclude. The sole yes-!vote boiled down to a concern over understatement; this was addressed in subsequent comments. I further note that "land of Israel" and "Land of Israel" are arguably distinct. Discussion regarding inclusion of the infobox itself is tangential to the RfC. Iseult ^Δx talk to me 20:02, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

---

Should we include ארץ ישראל, ʾEreṣ Yiśrāʾēl [Land of Israel] in the infobox? Should it be included in the first footnote of this article? Nehushtani (talk) 11:53, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

• Yes and Yes. The term is used almost exclusively in Hebrew sources when refering to the region, and the term פלשתינה - although a literal translation of the subject of this article - is seldom used. Therefore, the long-standing version including both terms in the infobox should stand. The long-standing version (at least for the last year until a series of reverts) had ארץ ישראל only in the footnote; I proposed a compromise to include both terms, and that stood for over a month until it was reverted again. I believe that not including the common terms is a violation of WP:NPOV. Nehushtani (talk) 11:53, 22 December 2025 (UTC) Sock strike. TarnishedPath^talk 06:29, 14 January 2026 (UTC)
• No. I self-reverted this edit at Nehustani's request, but believe it should be reinstated. The Land of Israel has its own article and this one is about Palestine (region). My edit retained the Hebrew transcription of Palestine in the infobox, while moving the Hebrew transcription of Eretz Yisrael to a footnote with the part of the explanation pertaining to it, to the first mention of Land of Israel in the third sentence of this article. The part of the footnote addressing the use of Palestine in Hebrew was retained in the infobox. This is sufficient for this page, which is not about the Land of Israel after all. Tiamut (talk) 12:42, 22 December 2025 (UTC)
• Yes and Yes. In English, "Land of Israel" is also widely used in modern academic literature as a secular, academic geographic designation for the same area referred to as Palestine or the southern Levant, alongside the earlier . This is not a fringe or marginal usage. The terms "Land of Israel" and "Eretz Israel" appear tens of thousands of times in Google Scholar (92,800 and 48,100 times respectively), including in works that are not concerned with biblical theology or the conceptual history of the term in Jewish culture, but neutrally, with archaeology, social history, demography, and political history of the region.

Some scholarly titles use formulations such as "Land of Israel/Palestine" explicitly as parallel or interchangeable geographic descriptors (e.g., Zionist settlement in the land of Israel/Palestine; Israeli views of the land of Israel/Palestine‏).

In other cases, "Land of Israel" is used as a neutral regional label, for example in works like:

• Hellenism in the Land of Israel‏ (published by University of Notre Dame Press)
• The advent of the age of Iron in the Land of Israel: a review and reassessment‏ (published by the Institute of Archaeology of Tel Aviv University through Taylor & Francis)
• Ancient Jewish art and archaeology in the land of Israel‏ (published by Brill)
• The bedouin of the land of Israel—settlement and changes‏ (published by Urban Ecology)
• The political and social history of the Jewish community in the land of Israel, c. 235–638‏. (published by Cambridge University Press)

In these contexts, the term clearly functions as a secular name for the same physical region discussed elsewhere as Palestine, not as a purely biblical or non-territorial concept. Historically, this parallel usage is also visible in the British Mandate period, when official coins and documents displayed "Palestine" alongside "E.I" (Eretz Israel) as a name for the same polity under British rule, showing recognition of the two names for the same territory.

Removing "Land of Israel" would risk understating a well-documented and widely attested alternative name for the region. A brief clarification in a note about its different connotations may be appropriate, but excluding it would not accurately reflect its documented use in reliable secondary sources. It would be also against our policy on WP:NPOV. Rafi Chazon (talk) 13:24, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

The first paragraph of this article already includes Land of Israel so there is no risk of understating anything. If you insist these are synonyms, then "Land of Israel" is a fork that should be merged into this article. Tiamut (talk) 14:41, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

Also, as explained above, no information was removed. Just shifted out of the infobox into the main body. Not sure why the Hebrew name should even be in the infobox for Palestine, but willing to keep it, if it is actually "Palestine" in Hebrew, not some other phrase. Tiamut (talk) 14:43, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

@Tiamut - I would be fine with removing all of the foreign language equivalents from the infobox. If we include other languages at all, it should include Hebrew, and the Hebrew should include the common name. Nehushtani (talk) 06:52, 23 December 2025 (UTC) Sock strike. TarnishedPath^talk 06:29, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

The foreign languages forms are an essential record of the historicity of the name, which obviously predate the English forms by a couple of a millennia They currently only appear in the infobox or footnotes. So I am not for removing them. And remain opposed to including any other Hebrew form but the one directly related to this term. Tiamut (talk) 06:59, 23 December 2025 (UTC)

• No I agree with Tiamut, and with their latest edit that was self-reverted; I don't think we should replace or expand the Hebrew romanization of Palestine with ʾEreṣ Yiśrāʾēl in the main list of names. The purpose of that list is simply to give the standard linguistic equivalents of "Palestine" across languages. The second footnote already explains the broader issue of Hebrew terminology in detail, including ʾEreṣ Yiśrāʾēl, hāʾĀreṣ, Pāleśtīnā, and Fālasṭīn, along with their historical and political contexts. Adding ʾEreṣ Yiśrāʾēl to the main parenthetical list would give it undue weight relative to the other languages and would also break the pattern: the list presents direct lexical equivalents, not alternative or ideologically loaded names for the geographic region. Since Pāleśtīnā is the actual Hebrew form parallel to Palestine, it fits the scope of the list. ʾEreṣ Yiśrāʾēl is a different term with its own history, and the current footnote already covers that appropriately and neutrally. The same logic applies to the infobox. Paprikaiser (talk) 21:14, 22 December 2025 (UTC)
• @Nehushtani: please clarify whether you intend that the Land of Israel article should then have Palestine (فلسطين) as an alternate name in a parallel manner. If your answer is yes, then we can discuss both questions here. If no, or unsure, I will open a parallel RfC at that article.

My view is that it would be illogical and inconsistent to have an alternate name here not mirrored at that other article. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:20, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile - I am unsure where you want to add it. The second sentence already reads "Related biblical, religious, and historical English terms include .... Palestine." Nehushtani (talk) 06:49, 23 December 2025 (UTC) Sock strike. TarnishedPath^talk 06:29, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

Yes, just as the third sentence in this article already says "Other names for part or all of this region include… the Land of Israel".

So if you think that the current status is adequate at the Land of Israel article, then what already we have here is adequate too.

Onceinawhile (talk) 14:03, 23 December 2025 (UTC)

It is not adequate in this article because 99% of Hebrew sources refer to the region as ארץ ישראל and not as פלשתינה. The insistence on including only פלשתינה is a violation of NPOV because that's not what the region is called in Hebrew. Nehushtani (talk) 14:13, 23 December 2025 (UTC) Sock strike. TarnishedPath^talk 06:29, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

The opposite applies to the Land of Israel article. 99% of non-Zionists refer to the land as Palestine. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:26, 23 December 2025 (UTC)

• No - Though there may be large overlaps in their respective territories & some may colloquially use the two terms interchangeably, "Land of Israel" ≠ "Palestine (region)". The Land of Israel is a religious term with contradicting biblical descriptions of its borders, where the region of Palestine is a strictly geographical term, its borders having moved over time due to shifting political powers in the region. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 00:40, 23 December 2025 (UTC)
• No they're not the same thing per Butterscotch Beluga and Tiamut. If they were, then his article and Land of Israel should be merged as they would just be alt names for the same subject. Clearly no one is proposing that, for good reason. There is some appeal to Google Scholar returns above suggesting that they are synonyms. If one looks closely at the search results Land of Israel clearly is used to indicate or even allude to the concept of the biblical Jewish territory rather than as a synonym for Palestine. DeCausa (talk) 22:54, 23 December 2025 (UTC)
• No As pointed out above, if they were synonyms, there should only be one article, which would clearly be wrong. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:40, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
• (Summoned by bot) No in preference of פלשתינה per WP:NPOV, specifically WP:VOICE. Although Hebrew sources may use ארץ ישראל more often than פלשתינה, avoiding the use of a potentially politically charged term in the infobox in favor of the literal translation "neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject" and keeps the POV neutral. As mentioned by Tiamut, Land of Israel is mentioned in the first paragraph of the lead, and furthermore the footnote will still be present explaining the various Hebrew terms for the subject. I could be persuaded to support removing all translations from the infobox as suggested by Nehushtani and describing the terms in a separate section within Palestine (region)#Etymology per MOS:FOREIGNEQUIV. mdm.bla 17:20, 24 December 2025 (UTC)

So can I reinstate my edit? Seems the consensus is against maintaining the Hebrew form not of Palestine in the infobox. Tiamut (talk) 15:05, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

@Tiamut - Yes, you may reinstate your edit. Nehushtani (talk) 07:34, 7 January 2026 (UTC) Sock strike. TarnishedPath^talk 06:29, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

Remove all translations from the infobox, the previous analysis of how sources differ by language (with Hebrew sources treating "Palestine" and "Land of Israel" more interchangeably while others make a distinction) shows that this is a good example of an infobox not being able to provide the necessary nuance. They can be replaced by an Alternate names link pointing to the etymology section. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:51, 9 January 2026 (UTC)

I find the inbox non-integral to this page. And the other categories represented there deeply problematic too. The only useful part to me is the foreign names, so if they are going to be removed, remove the infobox completely. Tiamut (talk) 19:34, 9 January 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rationale behind the renaming to “Syria Palaestina”

As noted in a discussion of the same issue in the article “Timeline of the name Palestine”, there is apparently no conclusive evidence that the Romans renamed the province “Syria Palaestina” to punish the Jews, other than the fact that the empire did not do the same on other occasions. As indicated by one reference in the aforementioned article, some scholars propose alternative explanations, such as the Roman province extending beyond the former Jewish kingdoms over the historical land of Palestine. It might then be more appropriate to leave it open. ~2026-88867-7 (talk) 14:11, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

The above comment refers to the third paragraph of the “Etymology” section. ~2026-88867-7 (talk) 15:06, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

Edit request 6 November 2025

Description of suggested change:

The text on this page asserts that Palestine is the birthplace of both Christianity and Judaism. "As the birthplace of Judaism and Christianity, Palestine has been a crossroads for religion, culture, commerce, and politics." This is inaccurate. Palestine did not exist when Judaism originated sometime around the 10th century in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Neither did Palestine exist when Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which was then the kingdom of Judah and crucified in Jerusalem, which was then in the kingdom of Israel.

I suggest improving accuracy by removing the text "As the birthplace of Judaism and Christianity" while retaining the text "Palestine has been a crossroads for religion, culture, commerce, and politics."

Diff: Warning Unnamed parameter |1= set to default value. Please change it. Failure to use {{Text diff}} to specify your requested text changes, if not adequately described above, may lead to your request being denied.
~2025-31545-71 (talk) 02:21, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. NotJamestack (talk) 02:27, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Editors without the extendedconfirmed grant can't participate in consensus forming discussions for articles like this covered by the WP:ARBECR restrictions. Different 'not done' options from Template:EEp are more appropriate, like |xy. Edit requests by non-EC people need to follow WP:EDITXY. This one appears to be asking for changes to the lead as if it is independent from the article body. That's not okay, per WP:LEAD, it's a summary of the body. If there is something wrong, it should be fixed in the body then summarized in the lead. And the requested change appears to be inconsistent with other information in the article and based on the temporary account's personal knowledge rather than reliable sources. Sean.hoyland (talk) 02:48, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

I have opened up a new discussion here. NotJamestack (talk) 16:17, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is nonsense, as in: it doesn't make sense/is irrational. Arminden (talk) 14:40, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

that does not refer to palestine as a state but as a region.

this article talks about that geographic region not the state.

it is undeniable that those religions where founded within the region of Palestine even if it was not known as that then. ~2026-92658-2 (talk) 19:16, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

Request for consensus

Did Palestine as a region exist before Judaism and Christianity, or after? NotJamestack (talk) 16:16, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Yes. Herodotus refers to the region as Syria-Palaestina or just Palaestina sometimes. And Judaism really begins after the Babylonian exile. Tiamut (talk) 14:44, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

The latter is certainly false.

https://www.history.com/articles/judaism

https://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/k12/docs/support/world_religions/judaism/origins.pdf

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Judaism ~2026-74319 (talk) 17:26, 4 January 2026 (UTC)

Why is that relevant? this article is about the region not the term itself? when the term first came in use is irrelevant to what should be covered the history part of the article covers history from long before the term originated. ~2026-92658-2 (talk) 19:21, 10 February 2026 (UTC)