Talk:Al-Khwarizmi

Note: There is consensus that Al-Khwarizmi should not have his ethnicity described in the lead, see: Talk:Al-Khwarizmi/Archive_7#RfC: Al-Khwarizmi's ethnicity

"He should not be called Persian - that is a modern nationality"

This seems to be the reason a consensus was reached to omit Al-Khwarizmi's ethnicity.

Persian is not a modern ethnicity. Should we omit Greek from Aristotle, Plato, and Pythagoras? Persians existed in the time of Al-Khwarizmi. Saying someone is Persian or Iranian doesn't mean they are from the modern country of Iran with all the political connotations of that. It means that they are Persians/Iranians.

Why do other ancient/medieval scientists have their ethnicity mentioned in the first sentence of the lede, but when it comes to Iranians/Persians, its a point of contention, a "distraction", or something else? Idris Shirazi (talk) 07:03, 17 November 2025 (UTC)

Persians did indeed exist as an ethnic group back then. I assume it was removed from the lede due to MOS:ETHNICITY, which is arguably even more important to maintain in Middle Eastern–related articles, as they are one big pile of never-ending disruption. If you think the same should happen in the article of those Greek figures, I would recommend proposing that in their respective talk page. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:29, 17 November 2025 (UTC)

So for example Nikola Tesla article violates MOS:ETHNICITY because it says he is a Serbian???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Idris Shirazi (talk) 21:50, 17 November 2025 (UTC)

Many articles do not respect Wikipedia rules, or even are wrong. They cannot be used as examples for improving this particular Wikipedia article. D.Lazard (talk) 12:04, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

Hello D.Lazard, I appreciate your response. I just wanted to address some of the things you said.

"3 per above, and because the following: Firstly "Persian" and "Iranian" suggest a modern form of citizenship, which is anachronic here. Secondly, if appears that no other information on his ethnicity is known, other than his name, and all assertions on his ethnicity are conjectures based on his name only. D.Lazard (talk) 11:22, 20 August 2025 (UTC)"

1. Persian and Iranian suggest a modern form of citizenship

Sassanid inscriptions from centuries before Al Khwarizmi explicitly refer to Iran as Iranshahr (Emperor of the Iranians) and refer to themselves as Iranians, its the Naqsh e Rostam

Ferdowsi's Shahnameh, roughly contemporaneous with Al Khwarizmi, is full of explicit references to Iranian peoplehood and "national" consciousness (not national as in a political entity, but as peoplehood) explicitly using the name "Iran" and "Iranian". For context, Ferdowsi hailed from Central Asia.

"Persian"(exonym) and "Iranian"(endonym) are not modern. Just like "Greek"(exonym) and Hellenne(endonym) are not modern. So we call Strabo and Saint George Greeks with this in mind, understanding that North-eastern and south-eastern anatolia are politically part of Turkey, but differentiating between the modern political borders and historical ethnicities. To be clear, Iran/Iranian/Persia/Persian are names that have a life and history of their own, and cannot be reduced to the political structure of the modern country of Iran.

2. No other information on his ethnicity is known, other than his name

Al-Tabari (the earliest primary source we have on Al Khwarizmi) not only affirms his Persian ethnicity but goes as far as to call him "Al-Majusi". Majusi is an Arabic word related to Magus in English. In Arabic, it refers to practitioners of the Zoroastrian religion. Its unlikely Al Khwarizmi was a Zoroastrian by the time he was writing his works, but the inclusion of the term cannot be ignored. Broadly, "al Majusi" was also extended to Persians in general.

Ibn Al Nadeem, writing a century after Al Tabari, also gives his ethnicity explicity as Persian, as per the Bayard Dodge English translation of Ibn al-Nadim's Fihrist which is cited within this article

Even without these two primary sources confirming his ethnicity, The last name Al-Khwarizmi by itself, particularly considering his birthdate (750 AD) is itself sufficient to establish an Iranian (again, meant in the historic sense, not modern borders, just like Greek can apply to someone living in Lebanon in Roman times) ethnicity. The last name Al-Khorasani by contrast might cause reasonable confusion, as there were Arabs who lived in Khorasan after the Islamic conquest. Khwarezm, by contrast, was located in a much farther north, much more remote region. It wasn't so much "conquered" as vassalized by the Abbasids in exchange for peace. The ruling Zoroastrain Afrighid dynasty of Khwarezm actually didn't lose power. They didnt even convert to Islam until Al-Khwarizmi was in his 40s. To be born in al Khwarezm meant, in Al Khwarizmis time, to be born in a remote region of central asia ruled by Zoroastrians, and populated by Zoroastrians.

I just hope that you consider these points and thank you for taking the time to respond. Idris Shirazi (talk) 05:22, 19 November 2025 (UTC)

What desperate attempts by Persian nationalists to paint him as Iranian when he was Uzbek in origin. He has no connection to modern Iranians but only to Uzbek people who are their own culture and identity and who don’t even like Iranians — Preceding unsigned comment added by ~2026-15381-20 (talk) 13:57, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2026

Change "Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi,[note 1] or simply al-Khwarizmi (c. 780 – c. 850) was a mathematician..." to "Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi,[note 1] or simply al-Khwarizmi (c. 780 – c. 850) was an Iranian mathematician..." ~2026-17952-75 (talk) 23:03, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

 Not done Contradicts RfC consensus above. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:11, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

am writing to suggest a phonetic update to the entry for Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī.

While the Latinised "Khwarizmi" is the historical standard in Western mathematics, it inadvertently perpetuates a 900-year-old mispronunciation of a silent Persian letter.

In Persian, the "w" (و) in his name is a vāv-e ma'dul—a silent character. Just as we do not pronounce the "k" in "knife," the correct Persian pronunciation is Al-Kharazmi.

By transliterating the silent "w," the West has effectively turned a person’s name into a Greek-sounding technical term (Algorithm), further distancing the scholar from his actual Persian identity.

I believe the MacTutor archive, as a premier global resource, could lead the way by adding a phonetic note or acknowledging Al-Kharazmi as the linguistically accurate name. This would ensure that students and historians respect the authentic heritage of the man who gave us Algebra.

~2026-21179-15 (talk) 21:11, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't use what some judge to be the "linguistically accurate name". It generally uses the name that's actually most commonly in use. If your grievance is over common usage, you need to approach all publishers everywhere and ask them to change the name they use on linguistic grounds. If, by some stretch of the imagination, they do, then Wikipedia will eventually follow suit.

Regarding inadvertently perpetuates a 900-year-old mispronunciation, let us know when Persian speakers stop calling Plato "Aflatoon" (افلاطون) and Alexander the Great "Iskandar" (اسکندر). Largoplazo (talk) 17:09, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Also, he lived and worked in Baghdad, and used to write in Arabic language. There is no evidence that the Arabic and the Farsi pronunciations were the same at that time. D.Lazard (talk) 18:43, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Proposal to correct phonetic transliteration to "al-Kharazmi"

I am writing to suggest a phonetic update to the entry for Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī.

While the Latinised "Khwarizmi" is the historical standard in Western mathematics, it inadvertently perpetuates a 900-year-old mispronunciation of a silent Persian letter. In Persian, the "w" (و) in his name is a vāv-e ma'dul—a silent character. Just as we do not pronounce the "k" in "knife," the correct Persian pronunciation is Al-Kharazmi. By transliterating the silent "w," the West has effectively turned a person’s name into a Greek-sounding technical term (Algorithm), further distancing the scholar from his actual Persian identity. I believe the MacTutor archive, as a premier global resource, could lead the way by adding a phonetic note or acknowledging Al-Kharazmi as the linguistically accurate name. This would ensure that students and historians respect the authentic heritage of the man who gave us Algebra. Best regards, Dr N Dolatshad~2026-21179-15 (talk) 21:09, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

@~2026-21179-15 Wikipedia doesn't use what some judge to be the "linguistically accurate name". It generally uses the name that's actually most commonly in use. If your grievance is over common usage, you need to approach all publishers everywhere and ask them to change the name they use on linguistic grounds. If, by some stretch of the imagination, they do, then Wikipedia will eventually follow suit.

Regarding inadvertently perpetuates a 900-year-old mispronunciation, let us know when Persian speakers stop calling Plato "Aflatoon" (افلاطون) and Alexander the Great "Iskandar" (اسکندر) instead of using their "linguistically accurate" names. Largoplazo (talk) 17:20, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Correction of the name of Kharazmi the Persian scholar please

am writing to suggest a phonetic update to the entry for Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī.

While the Latinised "Khwarizmi" is the historical standard in Western mathematics, it inadvertently perpetuates a 900-year-old mispronunciation of a silent Persian letter. In Persian, the "w" (و) in his name is a vāv-e ma'dul—a silent character. Just as we do not pronounce the "k" in "knife," the correct Persian pronunciation is Al-Kharazmi. By transliterating the silent "w," the West has effectively turned a person’s name into a Greek-sounding technical term (Algorithm), further distancing the scholar from his actual Persian identity. I believe the MacTutor archive, as a premier global resource, could lead the way by adding a phonetic note or acknowledging Al-Kharazmi as the linguistically accurate name. This would ensure that students and historians respect the authentic heritage of the man who gave us Algebra. Best regards Dr N Dolatshad~2026-21179-15 (talk) 21:13, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

Nationality

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I was reading the article Islamic Golden Age and followed a handful of links to read more about some of the figures listed there. I noticed that all of the articles on Arab scholars which I read stated their nationality in the lede, e.g. Muhammad al-Idrisi, Al-Jahiz, Ibn Mu'adh al-Jayyani, Ibn al-Nafis, etc, like so:

Abū ʿAbd Allāh Muḥammad ibn Muʿādh al-Jayyānī ... was an Arab mathematician

Of the two articles I read on Persian figures (this one and Avicenna) neither mentioned their nationality in the lede. I went to add it and saw a note directing me to an RFC on the inclusion of this detail in which most of the participants expressed opposition to it based on MOS:ETHNICITY. I have two issues with this. The first, obviously, is that there are hundreds, likely thousands, of articles describing a person as Persian or Arab in the first sentence of the lede and there is no compelling reason why this article (and the other I mentioned) should be the sole exceptions to this. I have read some articles in which there is an ambiguity surrounding a person's descent but that is not the case here. The second and more important objection is that MOS:ETHNICITY is a completely irrelevant policy and not applicable in this case at all. The intent of the policy is obviously to prevent subjects from being introduced as "African-American" or "Chinese-Canadian" or something along those lines. It is not applicable to historical figures and even says as much which it states "In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident". The reason for this is that the contemporary distinction between nationality and ethnicity did not exist in historical times. Although al-Khwarizmi may have been a "citizen" of the Abbasid Caliphate, he would have been considered, by himself and his peers, to be Persian, and likewise for any Arab. There was no "Abbasidi" nationality in the sense we understand today. If one takes this interpretation of MOS:ETHNICITY seriously Julius Caesar should not be described as Roman because that would be an impermissible reference to his ethnicity. Apart from this I cannot understand why only Persian figures have been the target of this "de-ethnicizing" campaign. I'm not familiar with the history of this article but I wonder if there is some kind of (nationalist?) agenda being pushed here. Laurdecl ^talk 05:15, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

The problem (as discussed in many occasions, see above and in the archives), is inability to come to a consensus on a nationality. Any one picked will result in edit wars. The major nationalities requested have been Arab, Persian, Iranic, Muslim and Uzbek. His origin was from Khwarazm, but did his major work in Baghdad. This one doesn't have a simple answer, so it's been excluded. Tarl N. (discuss) 17:39, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

Right, but, he was not an Arab. This is not a matter of opinion but of the definition of the word. He was not a descendant or member of any Arabic tribe. No Arab at the time would have thought of him as an Arab. He would have been introduced to his colleagues in Baghdad as a Persian. I can go and work in Tokyo but that doesn't make me Japanese. Laurdecl ^talk 12:22, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

He wrote in the Arabic langage and in this language only. Nothing is factually known about his life and his origins, except his work in Arabic language and his name. D.Lazard (talk) 14:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

Yes we know that he is born in Iran, he is of Iranian/Persian descent and everyone in Iran and its whereabouts know he is Iranian. It is only those in the West that confuse him because of his language. He had to write in Arabic or else he wouldn't succeed. ~2026-29397-05 (talk) 20:00, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

Al Khwarizmi is Persian/Iranian

It is literally one of Irans biggest mathematicians, why do we keep discussing this? It is just facts. ~2026-29397-05 (talk) 19:58, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

Because not everyone agrees. See the archives of this talk page. The consensus is that the ethnicity (Arab, Persian, Uzbek, Khwarezmian, ...) is sufficiently controversial that any claim will result in edit wars. Tarl N. (discuss) 20:02, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recurring problem from nationalists on origins

I was going to add to my comment above, but since that discussion has been closed, let me propose the following three-word change in green (with explanatory footnote) to document in the article that the omission is neither accidental nor malicious:

[...lede...] a mathematician of obscure origin active during the Islamic Golden Age, who produced Arabic-language works in mathematics, astronomy, and geography.[...]

[...rest of article before note list...]

I use the term "obscure" advisedly, meaning the origins have truly been lost in the mists of time. My original attempts used "undocumented", which would be infelicitous due to current politics and euphemisms. An alternative would be "uncertain", but that would probably also be provocative.

A worthwhile addition, or better to simply let sleeping dogs lie, and continue to revert nationalists as they come through? Tarl N. (discuss) 22:36, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

It's not going to stop them either way. At least we can point to the RfC now. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:05, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

It is not nationalism in people are trying to prove a fact. ~2026-33552-13 (talk) 15:47, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Al Khwarazmi should be locked as Persian/Iranian

There have been several doctors and researchers citing that he is indeed Persian/Iranian, and no one from those that say he is Arab, Uzbek etc have provided any sources. It should be discussed and he had Iranian origin. The chances of Arab or Turkic tribes settling that deep in Iran are very low, just because he is from Khwarazm doesn't it mean he is turkic, Iranic people lived there before that. ~2026-30512-64 (talk) 17:21, 21 May 2026 (UTC)

WP:STICK. Tarl N. (discuss) 21:03, 21 May 2026 (UTC)

Dengalo? ~2026-33552-13 (talk) 15:46, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

He's Al-Khwarazmi (ra), not Al-Khwarizmi (ri)

From Khwarazm (razm), and as stated in this research:

https://www.malecso.org/2021/04/06/%D9%85%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%AA%D9%90%D8%AD%D9%8F-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%80%D8%AC%D9%8E%D8%B2%D9%92%D9%85-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D9%85%D9%8F%D8%B4%D9%83%D9%90%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AA%D9%90-%D9%84%D9%8E%D9%81%D8%B8%D9%90

And according to Al-Ankaa' in (الملحوظات) section:

https://alankaa.com/etymology/%D8%AE%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B2%D9%85

And according to the main article of Al-Khwarazmi city which is: Khwarazm, and (i) in the name is just a Nisbah (like Iraqi to Iraq).

So please change the title to ((Al-Khwarazmi)) and every name in the article. Ali Ayed (talk) 16:14, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Article subject names are written as they're most commonly found, not as someone thinks they should be written based on etymology. In this case, the name has been established for such a long time that the eponymous "algorithm" isn't, instead, "algorathm". Largoplazo (talk) 16:36, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

Also, this is English Whikipedia, and spelling must be the most common English spelling, not the correct Arabic spelling or transliteration. D.Lazard (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2026 (UTC)