Talk:Mordechai Schlein

"Red flags" with the credibility of this article

Very few Jews from eastern Belarus were deported to Auschwitz. The subject of this article was very young, bordering on implausibly so, when he is said to have been involved with the resistance. No scholarly sources are cited, instead you use a religious website which is not reliable for anything but possibly interpretations of Judaism and Jewish customs. (t · c) buidhe 20:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I've already added two other books as sources, he is not that well known but there are still some sources out there which I think are enough to stablish notability; obviously a jew person will have more jew sources and the reason why I used those two is because they are the most detailed I could find. I didn't find any scholary articles online other than a PhD dissertation. The Blue Rider 21:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Also one of the two sources is The Forward which seems a pretty well stablish and reputable source. The Blue Rider 21:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Already removed Aish.com which can be indeed unreliable. The Blue Rider 21:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if the story is true, but the lack of mention in scholarly sources (there are a lot about partisan war in Belarus) doesn't improve the credibility of the account. I don't know what primary accounts that the other sources are based on but if he really blew up a building in Ovruch killing 200 Germans as you assert here, there would be expected to be mentions in German and Ukrainian sources. (t · c) buidhe 21:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

There are plenty of news in German about Motele, here's a few: 1, 2, 3 and 4 The Blue Rider 17:36, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

The source that I removed said there were 200 Germans officers, I changed to many instead of 200. I haven't looked into the German language much, but I did saw some German books about him which I plan to download. The Blue Rider 21:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

True or not, there are quite some sources about him, some more detailed than others, but still sources. Whether to phrase this as folklore or as real might the actual question. The Blue Rider 21:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I also saw one source with a different spelling so I assume he might be known by different names depending on the language. The Blue Rider 21:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, after researching more there are conflicting sources on whether his family was killed on the spot or sent to the concentration camp but the consensus seems to be that they were killed immediatly. The Blue Rider 15:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I would recommend withdrawing the GAN, at present it would be a quick fail in my book . When you cite a book it's needed to provide page numbers for verifiability. What pages in the 1967 Suhl book can I find the information (t · c) buidhe 23:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

How is it a WP:GAFAIL?! Not having pages is not a reason to quickfail. You can find it on 262 to 267. The Blue Rider 23:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The general issue is that the article is presenting the story as a fact without sufficient corroboration. If the Suhl book was the first to print and the others simply repeat it, that's not inspiring confidence in the account given that Suhl is novelized and seems to lack any citations or references. I would agree that the story is notable, but at present there is not enough information to determine if it was true, exaggerated, or folklore as you suggest above ... (t · c) buidhe 23:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, since all the sources are portraying it as true then our page should reflect that. It might be exaggerated or folklore but that would be a personal opinion of ours. The Blue Rider 02:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The primary source seems to be from a book, Motele, from Moshe Gildenman himself. The Blue Rider 15:15, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Hi, are you aware of any such book? You have suggested that this narrative originates with a book containing a novelized account. I agree with everything you've said in this discussion. —Alalch E. 19:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean "any such book"? I say Suhl is novelized because based on the preview; both the style of prose and inner narrative of Motele are not typical for nonfiction. The latter of course is not possible to objectively determine from the historical record. (t · c) buidhe 05:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I mean a book written by Gildenman, titled Motele. —Alalch E. 09:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

@Buidhe: I replied to The Blue Rider (who, BTW, can not continue this conversation because they have been indeffed) and pinged you in reference to what they wrote (... a book, Motele, from Moshe Gildenman himself). I found some information on this book:

• https://congressforjewishculture.org/people/5915/Gildenman-Moyshe-1898-August-10-1957 ("Motele der yunger partisan (Motele, the young partisan) (Paris, 1950), 197 pp.")
• https://revistas.uis.edu.co/index.php/revistacyp/article/download/12382/11504/83074 (quote: "The plot of the novel [this apparently refers to the chapters in Suhl] is based on the experiences of Motele Schlein, a talented violinist who joined Moshe Gildenman's partisans at age 12 after his family was murdered and indeed carried out a bombing at a restaurant frequented by German soldiers. In 1944, Schlein, then 14 years old, died in a skirmish with the German army. Gildenman published several accounts of partisans after the war, one of which is titled Motele der yunger partisan (Motele, the Young Partisan, Paris 1950) and openly focuses on Schlein's story. A connection to Suhl's novel seems obvious, but it has not yet been determined to what extent Suhl directly draws inspiration from Gildenman's narrative." The article notes that Suhl was an author of children's books, and further explains the use of the adventure genre tropes and techniques of attentuation of violence to make the content less disturbing)
  Noting that the part "A connection to Suhl's novel seems obvious, but it has not yet been determined to what extent Suhl directly draws inspiration from Gildenman's narrative" is strange because Suhl's book is a collection of stories credited to various authors, one of who is Misha Gildenman (his story "Diadia Misha (Uncle Misha) and His Partisans" divided into three chapters is on the pages 260–271, see ToC). There's more about that here: https://digital.bentley.umich.edu/djnews/djn.1975.06.06.001/4 ("Suhl's dramatic stories contain especially moving descriptions of heroism by children. An important article by Misha Gildenman tells about "Diadia Misha (Uncle Misha) and His Partisans: The Blowing Up of the Soldiers' Home." Appended to this article [in Suhl] is the following "Editor's Postscript:" ...)—Alalch E. 12:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

More discussion of this account in relation to a novel: Rosen, David M. (2005). Armies of the Young: Child Soldiers in War and Terrorism. Rutgers University Press. p. 19. ISBN 978-0-8135-3568-5. Among the most memorable stories of the Holocaust is that of Motteleh the child soldier. Motteleh, age twelve, was hiding in the forests of Belarus ... Motteleh did not survive the war, but his story is memorialized in the novel for young people titled Uncle Misha's Partisans.

Uncle Misha's Partisans (Internet Archive; first published in 1973, see Kirkus) says "Though most of the characters, places and events described in this book are fictitious, the story was inspired by an actual episode." This article copied onto encyclopedia.com (I don't have the time to figure it out right now) says "The ultimate survival novel of that time and place is Suhl's Uncle Misha's Partisans, retelling actual events so unusual that at least two other writers have turned them into novels (Romain Gary's ironic European Education, first published in France in 1945, and Gertrude Samuels' documentary Mottele, both written for adult readers). Yuri Suhl has succeeded in portraying twelve-year-old Motele ..."

"Gertrude Samuels' documentary Mottele" is Mottele: A Partisan Odyssey (1976), also a novel—see Kirkus ("less a novel than a Yeshiva workbook", i.e. a boring novel; category: fiction).

European Education by Romain Gary (Kirkus; published in 1944) includes a Jewish boy who plays the violin according to some review on the Internet.—Alalch E. 18:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

There are also books on Hebrew about him that are cited in his Hebrew Wikipedia correspondent but I wasn't able to locate most of them online. The Blue Rider 23:46, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The German army typically killed ~100 Soviet citizens in reprisal for each German killed. If several Germans were actually killed, that would be very noteworthy, as would be the massive reprisal. Why can't we find sources for this alleged event in the well studied soviet partisan war. The Soviet partisans killed more collaborators than germans, and their greatest success was disrupting rail infrastructure in attacks that caused no deaths. (t · c) buidhe 05:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Moving forward

With all the extensive debate on this article sourcing, what's the conclusion? Should the article be framed as folkloric/fictional? If so, what sources claim that? On the contrary, we have 6 sources claiming the events as true. Further, Stichnothe, 2021 says that La existencia de una resistencia judía armada contra los ocupantes alemanes ha sido ampliamente ignorada. It also claims that Yuri Suhl...el autor de They Fought Back: The Story of Jewish Resistance in Nazi Europe (1967), una monografía sobre la resistencia partisana judía en la Segunda Guerra Mundial. (bolded by me) and about Motele Schlein's partisian group: ...trata de un grupo históricamente autentificado dirigido por Moshe Gildenman The Blue Rider 15:51, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

Ping Buidhe: The creator who wanted to nominate this for GA and was blocked in the meantime is back and disputes problems with the content. —Alalch E. 16:48, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. You also participated on the discussion, what's your input on moving forward? The Blue Rider 16:51, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

You should be answering that first. —Alalch E. 17:09, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

My position is self-evident: I think it should be portrayed as true; you and Buidhe are the ones challenging the sources. My query was more to have any concrete saying on you two think should be done, since that wasn't achieved in the first discussion. The Blue Rider 17:12, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

You have not responded in substance to the reasons for concern identified in the actual discussion in the previous section. —Alalch E. 17:22, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

Looking at the discussion, I don't see any comment unaddressed. Any concrete examples? The Blue Rider 17:25, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

Wow. —Alalch E. 17:33, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

Can you, kindly, please be more productive? If you are referring to your source search then it's disconnected to a concrete narrative, again, thus the query. The Blue Rider 17:38, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

I was very productive when I left my comments of November 14, 15, and 18, 2024. Now is the time for you to be productive and to productively engage. —Alalch E. 17:56, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

After re-reading your comments, I will productively engage with them tomorrow, no worries. The Blue Rider 18:03, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

Great, appreciated. —Alalch E. 18:04, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

Your link is dead. Can you give me the citation used by Stichnothe? Also, not all journals are reliable sources. (t · c) buidhe 17:21, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

Here: https://revistas.uis.edu.co/index.php/revistacyp/article/view/12382 The Blue Rider 17:23, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

The title of this paper is "Violencia y resistencia en la literatura infantil y juvenil judía sobre la Shoah", so I would generally support its use for discussing children's literature, but not historical events. Note that according to the paper, the entire story stems from a book written by Gildenmann titled Motele der yunger partisan (1950) and taken up by Suhl, which the paper also calls a "novela" on page 131. The central issue of circular reporting and lack of corroboration for WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims remains unresolved. (t · c) buidhe 19:09, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

buidhe, with all honestly, should the article be AfDed? The Blue Rider 19:42, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

I don't necessarily think that the content needs to be deleted, the subject does seem to meet WP:GNG. I just think that the article needs to be reframed. Perhaps as you suggested it could be treated as a folklore topic or the historical details could be attributed to the book published by Gildenmann via Suhl instead of being stated as fact. (t · c) buidhe 20:04, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

I mainly rephrased the lead section, and to a lesser extent the biography and legacy sections, based on your and Alalch E's suggestions. I didn’t make any direct claims that Motele’s story is fictional or folkloric because no sources specifically describe it that way; sources only discuss the authors. Let me know if further improvements can be made, for example, whether it would be useful to mention that the authors tend to novelize events in their works. The Blue Rider 16:27, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

Okay, I went ahead and added the last suggestion. The Blue Rider 16:56, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

Great, I think it's a big improvement. (t · c) buidhe 00:09, 3 September 2025 (UTC)

Potential sources

• Geigen der Hoffnung: Damit ihr Lied nie verklingt by Titus Müller and Christa Roth (includes Schlein due to Weinstein's project)
• Heroes of World War II: 50 Inspiring Stories of Bravery by Kelly Milner Halls (book targeted at children, includes Schlein)
• Holocaust: der nationalsozialistische Völkermord und die Motive seiner Erinnerung by Deutsches Historisches Museum, 2002 (seems to mention Schlein on page 210, but currently don't have access to the book)
• Die Geigen des Amnon Weinstein by James A. Grymes (includes Schlein due to Weinstein's project)
• O Testemunho de Mulheres No Museu Do Holocausto: Memória E Discursividade by Scarlaty Horrarah Ferreira (Master thesis in literature, discuses the remembrance of Schlein in museum settings)

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 16:55, 8 December 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! You can add a {{ref ideas}} template near the top of the talk page with your suggestions, such as in Talk:Tomorrow's Pioneers. I'm letting you know so the reference ideas don't get potentially lost in the talk page archives, if that makes sense - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 16:57, 8 December 2025 (UTC)