Talk:Michał Kleofas Ogiński

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according to the polish wikipedia "pożegnanie ojczyzny" wasn't written by him but by Michał Kazimierz Ogiński —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.184.198.113 (talk) 14:35, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there seems to be two Michal Oginskis. Kleofas and Kazimierz... They seem very similar... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.235.53.132 (talk) 02:45, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Michał Kleofas Ogiński/CommentsTalk:Michał Kleofas Ogiński/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Farewell to the Fatherland is the best thing i have ever listened.

Last edited at 17:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 23:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Polish self-identification in the lead

Hello,

I believe that the beginning of the article should include information about, and a reference to, Ogiński’s Polish identity, with a link to Polish people. The reason for this is his own memoirs, in which he repeatedly identifies himself with the Polish nation.

The reference to Polish–Lithuanian identity is understandable, especially in the historical context of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. However, in this article it may be a little misleading, because such a formulation is most appropriate when a person was genuinely connected with two or more national identities at the same time, or when there is not enough historical evidence to assign a given figure more precisely. In the case of Michał Kleofas Ogiński, I believe the matter is quite clear. He belonged to the Polish nation, as he himself explicitly expressed in his memoirs.

It is true that he came from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and that he could also describe himself as a Lithuanian. However, this Lithuanian identity should be understood in its historical sense: as a regional and geographical identity connected with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and as part of a broader Polish identity. This was similar to the way Adam Mickiewicz understood Lithuanian identity, treating it as a regional form of overall Polish identity.

For this reason, I believe that referring only to Polish-Lithuanian identity at the beginning of the article may be somewhat misleading. Such a formulation can be very useful for figures such as Augustinus Rotundus, Kazimierz Nestor Sapieha, or perhaps Konstanty Kalinowski, especially because of the Belarusian dimension of his identity. However, Michał Kleofas Ogiński was Polish, and his own writings strongly support this.

I do not want to start any edit war about the exact wording of the first sentence. A compromise solution would also be possible: the article could retain the reference to Polish-Lithuanian identity later on, while an earlier sentence could state that Ogiński identified himself as a Pole, with a link to Polish people. Alternatively, the beginning could simply describe him as a “Polish diplomat and politician”, while the historical context of the era (the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, the noble “political nation”, etc.) could be explained later in the article. In my view, the use of the word “Polish” at the beginning is fully justified, because that is how Ogiński himself describes himself in his memoirs.

Links to the cited memoirs: T. I: https://archive.org/details/mmoiresdemiche01ogis T. II: https://archive.org/details/mmoiresdemiche02ogis T. III: https://archive.org/details/mmoiresdemiche03ogis T. IV: https://archive.org/details/mmoiresdemiche04ogis

Key quotations from the memoirs, with the French original and English translation:

1) "As a Pole..." - direct authorial self-identification

Tome I, Avertissement, p. xj:

FR: "Comme, à titre de Polonais, mon objet principal est de parler de la Pologne..." EN: "As a Pole, my principal object is to speak of Poland..."

In the same passage, the author adds: FR: "On ne doit pas être étonné qu’un Polonais fasse paraître ses Mémoires dans une langue étrangère..." EN: "One should not be surprised that a Pole publishes his Memoirs in a foreign language..."

2) "I was born a Pole" - the strongest possible form of first-person Polish self-identification

Tome II, Livre VIII, Chapitre V, p. 581:

FR: "...aucun titre, aucun emploi ni aucun événement possible, ne pouvait me faire oublier que j’étais né Polonais - ..." EN: "...no title, no office and no possible event could make me forget that I was born a Pole - ..."

3) "I have always been a good Pole" - self-identification as part of the Polish nation

Tome III, Livre IX, Chapitre I, p. 51:

FR: "J’ai toujours été bon Polonais, et je me fais gloire de n’avoir jamais cessé de mériter ce nom." EN: "I have always been a good Pole, and I take pride in never having ceased to deserve that name."

On the basis of these first-person statements, I believe that adding a reference to Ogiński’s Polish identity in the lead would be justified, verifiable, and neutral. The article does not necessarily have to remove the Polish-Lithuanian historical context, but it should also clearly acknowledge that Ogiński himself identified as a Pole. Emmaduranki (talk) 11:55, 23 June 2026 (UTC)