Talk:Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports

Admiral Robert Blake

Was Robert Blake (admiral) really Warden from 1656-1660? He died 1657...

Commoners

Were only three Lords Warden commoners? Bear in mind that even HRH Prince William of Wales is technically a commoner —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fiachra10003 (talk • contribs) 05:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

There are far more than 3 commoners on the list. Leaving out those not installed and Lord North who only became a peer towards the end of his time as Lord Warden, it is 3 since 1691 but there are several before this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.144.32 (talk) 15:29, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to delete the commoners sentence. Newystats (talk) 03:43, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Dead link

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John Beaumont

Why is a link given to an empty page John Beaumont (soldier) when John Beaumont (MP) is the same person? 83.85.10.162 (talk) 11:25, 15 December 2012 (UTC) Fluff

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Proposal to merge Wardens of the Coast with this article

Hi,

I think that the page Wardens of the Coast should be merged with this page, Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, because Wardens of the Coast is a stub and this page could benefit from explaining the origins by way of incorporating the Wardens of the Coast article's information into this article.

Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 08:05, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Definitely oppose. The Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports is an extant (and extremely high) honour in the British honours system. Although it originated as just one among many Wardens of the Coast (albeit the most important one as it's the one that faced France), there's very little overlap. Trying to shoehorn it into the article on the medieval Wardens would overwhelm the parent article; it would be akin to trying to merge Monarchy of the United Kingdom into Angevin Empire. ‑ Iridescent 08:57, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, how much more information can be added to the Wardens of the Coast article? If it can be expanded significantly enough to no longer count as a stub, then it warrants not merging. The beginning of this article mentions that the Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports position came into being originally as "Keeper of the Coast", which is wikilinked as Wardens of the Coast, so it makes sense to me that we could merge that information into this article in a section at the beginning of this article (before the current first section), perhaps called "History" or something (and clean up the text of the Wardens of the Coast article). DesertPipeline (talk) 14:46, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose merging with this article. A better home for this info would be as a history section in the Vice-Admiral of the Coast article, as that is the successor office. Opera hat (talk) 16:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I think it's best maintained as a separate article. Murray's "Constitutional History of the Cinque Ports" talks about these offices at some length, and describes them as having duties largely exercised in times of war, rather than general administrative ones. (And the terms used for the commission for the "Keepers of the Coast" in Sussex and Kent in 1295 was used for the Wardens of the March in 1296, so that assertion in the article is not quite as far-fetched as I initially thought it.) Only later did the general day-to-day administration of the Cinque Ports coalesce about the Warden of the Cinque Ports. I don't think it will ever be a long article, but a good historian could certainly expand it beyond what's there now. Choess (talk) 18:32, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

A response to both Opera hat and Choess: You bring up good points. I'm not very familiar with this topic and therefore my merge proposal may not be in the best interest. I will let this run for a little longer to see if anyone else has a view on it, but the indicator is definitely at 'don't move' right now. DesertPipeline (talk) 04:58, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

@DesertPipeline: No worries. This is why we discuss things, and it is a very difficult topic to expand. I probably would have taken Opera hat's position about merging it with Vice-Admiral of the Coast had I not stumbled across the passage in Warren describing the Wardens (the contemporary term in Latin was "Custodes [maris]") and making them seem relatively unique. Merging in small articles when there's a larger one that can adequately cover the sub-topic is good house-keeping, in general. Choess (talk) 14:13, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: If these two articles become merged, I think Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports should be merged into Wardens of the Coast instead of vice versa, because the first one is a subset of the latter. --Cyfal (talk) 10:19, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Source for List of Lords Warden of the Cinque Ports

The List of Lords Warden of the Cinque Ports section of this article gives as its source the "Cinque Ports website" (https://cinqueports.org/lord-warden-officials/list-of-lord-wardens/). In turn, this website describes the source for its list as " Dover Museum" - which does not seem to me to be a well-defined secondary source. Very few of the individual entries in the Wikipedia article list have separate references.

Having done some research and a line by line comparison, it seems to me that the Constable of Dover Castle and Lord Warden and Constable of Dover Castle (since 1267) portions of the list are most likely based on "The History of the Castle, Town and Port of Dover" by the Rev. S.P.H.Statham published by Longmans, Green and Co. in 1899. This is available online at the Internet Archive (https://archive.org/details/historycastleto00statgoog), at Google Books (https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/_/6zMQAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1) and probably elsewhere.

The "Keepers of the Coast" portion also appears to have been extracted from the text of the entries on the Cinque Ports website but the information is not in Statham. So it must have been derived from another source but I have not established which as yet.

I propose to replace the Constable of Dover Castle and Lord Warden and Constable of Dover Castle (since 1267) portions of the list with one that I have extracted from Statham. This contains names, more precise dates (where available) and Statham's own references to primary sources for each entry, so readers can trace these back if so inclined.

This would result in a table looking something like:

Sir John Devereux, K.G.	3 January 1388	1393	Pat . Rolls ; Rye Corp. Papers ; Rymer ; Lyon ; Jeake.
John, Baron de Bello Monte (Beaumont)	5 May 1393	September 1396	Pat . Rolls ; Add. MSS., 34, 147, 148 ; Rymer ; Lyon.
Edmund, Duke of York and Aumerle	11 September 1396	February 1398	Pat. Rolls ; Rymer's Fædera ; Lyon's Dover.
John March, Marequess of Dorset and somerset, K.G.	5 February 1398	August 1399	Pat. Rolls ; Complete Peerage.
Sir Thomas Erpyngham, K.G.	21 August 1399	1409	Add. MSS. , B.M., 33, 917 ; Pat. Rolls ; Gesta, Hen. V.
Henry Prince of Wales	1409	1413	Pat. Rolls ; Gardiner's His . Eng.; Lyon's Dover.
Thomas Fitzalan, Earl of Surrey and Arundel, K.B.	March 1413	November 1415	Pat. Rolls ; Dic . Nat. Biog.

The Wiki links to the relevant articles for many of the individuals will of course be replicated in the table.

Does anyone see a problem with this? Inspeximus (talk) 15:31, 14 October 2025 (UTC)