Talk:Lit Motors

Explanation of gyroscopic stabilisers

I suggest Wikipedia 'gyro monorail' for an explanation of gyroscopic stabilisers, and also the talk page. DavidJErskine (talk) 12:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Newbie's question about objectivity

Hi! I was poking around for motor stuff and thought this article's tone was a little off. For one, it uses the past tense, but I thought this company was still at least trying? And there are a few "many critics say" type statements that are not supported with citations. I've seen lots of live articles flagged for this issue; should this likewise be flagged? It seems like maybe a complicated issue for a newbie to tackle, but I'm willing to give it a shot! Otherwise, can someone more experienced flag it? Thanks so much! Spiegelmama (talk) 22:29, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Just Look

A quick Google search shows Lit Motors location at 1086 Folsom St, San Francisco, CA 94103 was vacant and up for lease. It appears to have since been leased. Another Google search shows that D. Kim also used to reside at that location (the shop has apartments above) but no longer does. So, you do the math. 50.34.112.51 (talk) 05:24, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

@50.34.112.51 litmotors.com has an updated copyright notice, and appears to be back. I'd speculate that this is connected to their resolved litigation.

Perhaps this article should use the present tense instead of the past tense? At the same time, I don't know that they have any reputable sources reporting on their revival. Libraryresearch6 (talk) 02:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Proposed revisions

So, first thing is that these edits are pretty extensive, so I'll just put my proposed final revision under the cut at the end of this topic.

Second, let me disclose a possible conflict of interest, as I am a current employee of Lit Motors. Although I have done my best to remain impartial, I'm sure some bias has influenced my edits, and I would appreciate any suggestions that could help improve the objectivity of the article.

With that out of the way, I totally agree with user Spiegelmama's assessment of the article's tone. I can totally sympathize with being disappointed in the lack of progress since the company was founded and annoyed by the CEO's behavior, but vented frustrations should at least be accompanied by good secondary sources. Also, there's been plenty happening with the company since 2022, so I've attempted to include more up-to-date information. Help with finding better/more reliable sources would be appreciated, as a lot of the original sources lead to 404s or broken wayback pages, and the sources I've included are largely from the company website (Also, I'm new to making big edits like this, so there's probably plenty of style errors). New sources will be formatted as links and labeled with an A (e.g., [A13]).

In the meantime, I'm adding a tone and weasel words banner. Assuming no objections, I'll push this edit to the main page after about a week or so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cosmoptera (talk • contribs) 22:45, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Edit(7/12/24): Pushed changes to the main article. If they get rolled back, please reply to this with reasons and/or suggestions for improvements to make.

Proposed Changes

Overview

Lit Motors Inc. is a San Francisco-based startup founded by Daniel K. Kim in 2010. Lit Motors designs conceptual two-wheeled vehicles with a focus on innovative technologies, including the AEV (Auto-balancing Electric Vehicle), often referred to as the "C-1," a fully electric, gyroscopically stabilized vehicle,^[1] and the Kubo cargo scooter. The inspiration for Lit Motors came to Kim in 2003, when he was nearly crushed by a chassis while manually assembling a bio-diesel Land Rover Defender 90.^[2] This experience led Kim to "chop a car in half," leading to the creation of the C-1 concept.^[3]

Since 2011, the company has developed a number of prototypes, but as of July 2024, has not given an exact release date for a production model.

Legal Issues

Lit Motors has been sued twice by four early investors, resulting in approximately $300,000 in legal judgments against Lit Motors and an arrest order against Kim for failure to appear at court hearings related to these lawsuits.^{[4][5][non-primary source needed]} On January 7, 2020, a San Francisco court granted a motion assigning Lit Motor's US patents to the plaintiffs in this lawsuit and restraining Lit Motors from selling its patents.^[6] Later in January, a settlement was reached and paid, and the patents were reassigned back to Lit.

Designs

AEV / C-1

Early in 2010, the company revealed a non-functional show model of the C-1. The design vision showcased an enclosed two-wheeled vehicle self-balanced by two single-gimbal control moment gyroscopes^[7], to be powered by lithium iron phosphate batteries. Design specifications and computer renderings indicated that it could hold a second passenger seated in the area directly behind the driver’s seat in a semi-reclined position, with their legs straddling the front seat.

Similar to a motorcycle, the original C-1 design has two wheels, but uses a small steering wheel instead of handlebars. The show model featured direct-drive in-hub motors in both wheels designed to provide a high amount of torque, stability, and traction control, while allowing for the body form to be about half the size of a car. However, recent prototypes show neither wheel with direct drive, indicating that the design may be undergoing changes.^[8][9]

Safety features are intended to include a steel unibody chassis, seat belts, airbags, and a gyroscope stability system.^[1]

Release	Balancing gyroscope Torque	Gyroscope Spin Up	Motor Output	Top Speed	Range per charge	Charge time
N/A	800Nm[10]	<70 seconds	2 x 20 kW	100+ mph	170 miles*	4-6 hrs

*Range per charge based on a constant speed of 60 mph, coefficient of drag of 0.2, and battery capacity of 13kWh, according to information on the company’s WeFunder page^[A1].

Production timeline

In 2011, the company announced plans for a first small production run in 2013, with the intention of selling the C-1 for $16,000.^[11] This initial price would vary depending on the state and federal tax incentives available at the time. The company began taking pre-order deposits through a tiered system priced from $250 to $10,000.^[12]

At the November 2012 Gigaom Roadmap Conference, a Lit representative said that the company had "another couple years’ engineering work before it's really ready to go on a small scale production. By a couple, I mean a year, two years or so, and then another couple years after that to scale to a big manufacturing."^[13] In a later interview by Gigaom, Daniel Kim stated that the C-1 was still about 2 to 2.5 years from production,^[14] indicating an expected production time frame of May - November 2015.

In May 2014, in a Forbes article, Kim said that the company was “working around the clock to get something that is ready for production within eight months,” with 20 full-time employees at Lit at the time the article was published.^[15] Lit continued to post updates in 2015 showcasing an early-stage development prototype.

On March 14, 2015, Kim was involved in a motorcycle accident on the Laguna Seca Raceway^[A2]. Kim suffered extensive injuries, necessitating an extended hiatus from leading development on the C-1 as he recovered. In February 2016, Forbes released an article on Lit Motors that discussed the effect of Kim’s injuries on development and included a new production timeline: "Today [Daniel Kim] is close to securing a new round of funding–a year later than planned. The money will be used to facilitate the next challenging stage of growth: building infrastructure from the ground up. His plan is to have a production-ready prototype in 24 months."^[16]

On May 24, 2016, at the Pioneers.io Festival, Danny Kim presented on the Lit AEV, stating, "I know that if we put 20 million dollars into our bank account today, we'll be able to deliver it in 2 years - 24 months."^[17] A September 22, 2016 Forbes article speculated on Lit Motor's past and future, suggesting a possible future acquisition by Apple. Forbes also commented on the lack of progress due to low fundraising: "Despite Kim’s grand vision, few investors were willing to bet on the company. In six years, Kim has raised less than $5 million."^[18] During 2016, Lit Motors removed the ability to accept pre-order deposits. Company postings throughout the rest of 2016 on social media continued to show a rough model "EP-4" prototype driven at low speed.

In 2018, Lit temporarily ceased email newsletters and social media updates. In mid-September, Lit launched a reconfigured website, though with no new progress updates^[A3]. The website would receive additional^[A4] changes^[A5] in the following years.

On April 1, 2022, Lit Motors began posting company updates on their website, with the first post on their blog summarizing company developments that had occurred in the last few years: Kim returning to the company in 2019 after recovering from his motorcycle accident; the company relocating to a design lab in Portland, OR; and the hiring of new personnel, including new VPs for Controls, Embedded Systems, and CMGs. Lit closed out the post by announcing a new funding goal of $9 million to develop a fully drivable prototype^[A6].  

In January 2023, Lit announced that they would be reopening preorders in February of the same year, with a goal of 10,000 pre-order sales by 2026^[A7]. Also in February, Lit announced a partnership with Mirko Konta, the CEO of Ideenion^[A8]. Later, in June, Lit was granted a patent^[A9] for a new control system developed by David Bailey for use in future C-1 prototypes. In August, Lit announced the hiring of Stefan Schäper, an ex-Audi employee, as the VP of Chassis and Integration^[A10].

On February 20, 2024, Lit Motors launched a fundraising campaign on WeFunder with a funding goal of $5 million^[A11]. As of July 2024, they have raised approximately $1.3 million of this goal^[A1]. On April 1, 2024, Lit announced the development of a new “pathfinder” chassis to serve as “a low cost iteration exploring our new vehicle architecture and validate our new embedded and balance system at a standstill.”^[A12]

Kubo

The Kubo is a cargo scooter design dubbed the "pick-up truck of the developing world."^[20] Initial designs were for a fully electric scooter run on lithium iron phosphate batteries, designed to carry cargo boxes measuring up to 22 in. by 22 in. by 22 in. and weighing up to 300 pounds. With a top speed of 35 mph, it would have a range of at least 50 miles per charge.^[21] In an interview from May 28, 2013, Kim detailed the Kubo design as using lithium polymer batteries with a 40-45 mile range, with the ability to use the cargo space to hold additional batteries to extend the range to 200 miles. He claimed that by summer of 2013, a small production run of 5-10 units would occur, followed by 100–1,000 units in another 6 months time, before ramping up to 50,000 - 200,000 units for full production. He also claimed a selling price of $500–$800USD in China, and $2,000–4,000 in the United States.^[14]

In December 2013, Kubo was launched on Kickstarter with an expected release date of July 2014, but Lit Motors fell short of meeting its funding goal with only $56,667 pledged of the $300,000 goal.^[22] Despite only 10 backers having pledged between $5,000 and $6,000 to purchase the Kubo scooter, Lit Motors affirmed that they are "definitely continuing with kubo!" in an update on the campaign. As of July 2024, current information on the company website is limited to basic details about the vehicle and its purpose^[A13].

Cosmoptera (talk) 21:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Conflicts Of Interest

Multiple major editors of this article have either confirmed or possible conflicts of interest with Lit Motors. Recents edits by user "Jee litmotors" are a clear cut conflict of interest. User "Cosmoptera" has also confirmed they are a Lit employee and declared their COI on this talk page, but still pushes through their own edits. The page's creator, user "Skherson", seems to be either founder Daniel K Kim himself, or someone working for him, as he also authored a Daniel Kim article which was promotional in tone and got deleted. Additionally, the page has been edited by multiple unregistered users whose only edits are to this page, raising more suspicion (although some of these are also critics). This needs to be monitored closely and Lit associated editors need to refrain from making any more edits to the main page. TKOIII (talk) 22:26, 13 June 2025 (UTC)