Talk:Joan Çetiri

Definition as Serbian

The person was from Albania, lived and died in Croatia, but was Serbian? Only because he painted Serbian churches? That is like saying Nicola Tesla was Canadian. Mondiad (talk) 01:58, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree. If we give importance to the ethnicity of Ottoman subjects, we should say Aromanian. Historian Meçan Hoxha has written a book on Grabova and its people, but it's offline. According to the book Grabova was the second most important Aromanian settlement after Moscopole. There are, however, several articles on that book (also on Cetiri)see this. He was definitively not a Serb. Jovancetiri (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Page move

Moved page. He also worked in Serbia, this doesn't mean he was Serbian. Probably Aromanian or Albanian from Grabova.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Edion Petriti (talk • contribs) 19:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Edion Petriti (talk • contribs) 19:33, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

As the move to "Joan Çetiri (Katro)" is unsupported in monographs on the subject, and the link added by above user likewise is not supporting such name, the stable and supported original name stays.--Zoupan 17:15, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

Date of death

Zoupan has added a source which is referring to different figures that Joan Çetiri died in 1789. This cannot be the case because Joan Çetiri's last work and signature is attested in 1813. I have added a list of works by Çetiri which were composed after 1789. It was removed by Zoupan removed who without talkpage discussion. Both Llukani (2021) and Moutafov (2002) have published lists of works and his signatures. Moutafov (2002): from 1789 up to approximately 1812 he was actively applying his craft in Albania, painting various churches and making easel icons for different iconostases. His last known piece is an icon of St. Spyridon painted in 1812 for the cathedral in Berat; it is about time that the artist by now nearly 90 years old, saw the last days of his life. The misconception that Çetiri died in 1789 is solely an issue which affects the Serbian articles added by Zoupan.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:36, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

Sisiou published in 2014 writes that In the 1790s, Tzetiris appears in the region of the Metropolis of Velegrada and, with the help of his brother Georgios, his son Naoum, and his nephew Nikolaos, undertakes several church decorations, of which two stand out. These are the Church of the Annunciation of the Theotokos and the Cathedral of the Virgin Mary in Berat. In the first church, the inscription informs us that the decoration with wall paintings was carried out by him together with his son Naoum in 1806. He was definitely alive and any reference to someone with the same surname who died in 1789 refers to someone else maybe from the same family.Alltan (talk) 14:42, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, hence Llukani (2021), Sisiou (2014), Moutafov (2002) refer to the same timeline. Llukani has included in the chapter about the Çetiri family all found inscriptions and signatures by Joan Çetiri (pp. 61-64) He couldn't have died in 1789 because the last icon which bears his signature appears in Toshkëz, 1813.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:05, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

Kučeković (2018): At what point his career came to an end is still not precisely known, but he probably died sometime after his last recorded iconostasis in Kula in Bačka in 1787 (aged around 70) No reliable clues as to his activity after this date exist, although there have been suggestions that he returned to Albania and worked there for another quarter of a century. The painter Jovan Cetiri from Grabova, whose works date from the last two decades of the 18 th century, is almost certainly the namesake of our Četirević. He may even be a member of his ex- tended family, which produced several painters in the 18th and 19th centuries. The author doesn't claim that he died after 1787, but it's clear that she didn't have any access to local Albanian sources when writing the article. What she describes as a possibility, refers to a fact: Çetiri was both alive and an active painter in the early 19th century.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:37, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

Please guys, this is getting out of hand. Kučeković (2018): is almost certainly the namesake of our Četirević + Cvetkovski (2018): is important and necessary because in the professional literature and among researchers the artistic work of the Zografs from the family Tzetiris from Grabovo is for a long period blighted by certain misapprehensions and understatements that are at odds with the presented material and their Zograf opus ... is repeatedly identifed with another Zograf, Jovan Četirievič Grabovan, from the same place Grabovo ... He dies around 1787 ... All the relevant literature and the views of the older scholars are noted and commentated on in the newest study on the work of Jovan Grabovan Četirevič, in which, based on new archive documents and insight into his whole opus, the author Branislav Todić points out the unsustainability of identifcation of any kind of these two Zografs with identical name + Kučeković (2020): Examining only the biographical notes written in Greek, previous scholars were losing track of Jovan Četirević’s activity ... Todić’s study clarified the majority of misconceptions about Četirević’s life and work in prior research ... concluding that Četirević must have died soon after his last recorded work in Kula in Bačka, in 1787 ... As his father before him, Nikola Grabovan ... recording his family history in the same manuscript ... the entry most important for this particular research – he stated that his “parent” (родителъ) Jovan Grabovan died on December 19, 1789, at the eleventh hour in the afternoon, and that he was buried the next day in the town of Slatina (Ill. 1) ... The entry about his father’s death is crucial because it finally refutes the claims of some scholars that Jovan Četirević Grabovan, at some point late in his life, after 1787, left the Metropolitanate of Karlovci and returned to his native land ... After the note of his father’s death, Nikola Grabovan continued his list of important family births and deaths. + Kučeković (2021): сликару Јовану Четиревићу Грабовану (Грабово, Албанија, око 1716. – Слатина, Хрватска, 1789), thus, Tzetiri(s) that painted in Muzakija is not the same as this person.--Zoupan 17:04, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

@Zoupan: You can revert a move per WP:RMUM only if it's recent, you can't "revert" 5 year old moves. Start a discussion if you want it to be moved and we'll see if the change you want to make is appropriate. I partially reverted your edits because you are removing well sourced info, but I didn't remove any source As far as the death date is concerned the sources we have predominantly don't consider that the Çetiri died in 1787, so Todic may be WP:FRINGE as he may in fact be the author who is mistaking him to be another Çetiri, but we can discuss how to phrase his opinion in the article.Alltan (talk) 00:29, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

Alltan and Maleschreiber: have ya'll made progress on resolving this issues? Since the "Sisiou 2014" and "Llukani 2021" citations were removed, the article shows referencing errors because it still has footnotes for that citation. Should the citations be restored? That would be easiest -- if not, maybe the material previously supported by those citations must be resorted. -- mikeblas (talk) 19:27, 28 September 2025 (UTC)