Talk:Ghizer, Gilgit-Baltistan

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedy deleted as lacking sufficient context to identify its subject, because I have gathered some important material for this article, and I'm trying to get more and more information related to this article for the betterment of Wikipedian visitors.--Khesrawkakakhail (talk) 16:32, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Phander or Golaghmuli

Khesrawkakakhail did blind replacement of Phander by "Golaghmuli", shortly before retiring, causing a great deal of mess. I am trying to recover the original text as best as I can. No sources have been provided. But, as far as I can see, there is no such thing as "Tehsil Golaghmuli". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:46, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

JPL Photojournal's PIA25355: Lake Shuwarang Chhat, Pakistan

Here is a page for JPL Photojournal of PIA25355: Lake Shuwarang Chhat, Pakistan. Rjluna2 (talk) 13:42, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

"Golaghmuli Valley" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Golaghmuli Valley has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2026 January 4 § Golaghmuli Valley until a consensus is reached. KyleSirTalksAlot (talk) 02:23, 4 January 2026 (UTC)

Undiscussed merge

Sutyarashi, I don't think this merge was appropriate. Just because a river has the same name according to modern geographical terminology, you can't project that the regions are the same. The elevations are different, the geographics are different, the people and their cultures are different etc. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:32, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Please provide the sources for its boundaries, delimitations of "Ghizer Valley" vis-à-vis Gilgit Valley and basis on which this "valley" has a geographic standing. Note that this article was initially created as even obscure "Golaghmuli Valley", from which I had moved to current name.

Moreover ethnicity and culture have zero effect over geography. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:40, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

The whole article is a blatant example of original research, synthesis and imagination of its original creator. I'm not sure on what basis you think it should not be deleted or, at the very least, merged. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:03, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Please provide sources for anything called "Gilgit Valley". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

For its geography, see

See also the source mentioning Shandur to be pass between Chitral and Gilgit: Travellers from Chitral to Kashmir.. took the route over the Shandur Pass (12,250 feet ) into the Gilgit Valley and followed the tracks connecting the Pamirs with Kashmir via the Astor Valley.

For sources specifically calling Ghizer part of Gilgit Valley, see:
Ghizer (upper Gilgit Valley), p. 113 and

Close above Ghizr the southern branch of upper Gilgit valley opens out gradually.., p. 121 Sutyarashi (talk) 13:39, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

So, all of these sources make it clear that it is Upper Gilgit Valley, which is also called Ghizer Valley. So what is your problem then? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:55, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Because it does not make it an independent valley but a part of Gilgit Valley. Next what, we're going to have separate articles for "Upper Astore Valley" and "Lower Astore Valley", "Upper Nubra Valley" and "Lower Nubra Valley" and so on? Moreso, Ghizer is not in itself a valley but a locality within Gilgit Valley. Sutyarashi (talk) 13:57, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Your own sources are validating the notability of this topic. For more, see Ghizer district and Ghizer. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:57, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Where do they prove that this is a valley? Sutyarashi (talk) 13:58, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

@Kautilya3 please stop adding OR and unsourced content back which has exactly zero references to back it. The news article you added wasn't RS either but a travelogue by an amateur writer, moreso, it doesn't even call it "Ghizer Valley". Sutyarashi (talk) 13:47, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

@Kautilya3 please stop edit warring and introducing original research back into article without discussion. The sole source you added wasn't RS, moreso it doesn't even back your claim of this region being a valley. Sutyarashi (talk) 13:54, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

If there is a supposed policy saying travelogues are not RS, please show me where. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:58, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Pleaee give a read to WP:RS on what constitute a reliable source. An amateur writer writing online is not going to establish its notability, especially since it doesn't back up claim of "Ghizer Valley" either. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:01, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Yes, the source doesn't call it "Ghizer Valley", it simply calles it "Ghizer". So what is wrong about it? Are you unaware that the name "Ghizer" has been used for something else in modern ill-educated world? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:01, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Article title, and the very thesis of the content, is purported to show existence of a valley. Ghizer as a locality does exist, which is a modern political district, no one is debating it. But it doesn't prove that it is anything more than a part of Gilgit River Valley. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:03, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

No Ghizer is a region witnessed in history.

One year later the Mehtar of Chitral, Gauhar Aman's most powerful enemy, died, and Gauhar Aman again attacked Yasin through the Roshan valley, this time with success. Subsequently he drove his brother, Mir Aman, out of Mastuj, and later on, capturing Punial and Gilgit, he became ruler over Mastuj, Ghizr, Yasin, Kuh, Gilgit and Punial.

Neither was Ghizer part of Gilgit, nor Gilgit a part of Ghizer. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:19, 30 April 2026 (UTC) Kautilya3 (talk) 16:19, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Ignoring obvious WP:AGE issues with this source, it still 1. Does not make any reference to a valley with this name 2. It does not make claim that Ghizer is part of Gilgit and vice-versa. However, both Gilgit and Ghizer (whatever region it is supposed to correspond to) are part of a single Gilgit Valley as above RS state.

Regardless, this does show that a region with this name exists, that is why I suggest that we should rename article to reflect what's present in sources (Ghizer, Gilgit-Baltistan, or similar naming). Sutyarashi (talk) 16:53, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

As a compromise, I suggest that the article be renamed simply to Ghizer, Gilgit-Baltistan. The issue with current article is that it is purported to show it as an independent valley, which is not backed up by RS. Gilgit River flows from Shandur Lake till Bunji, and its valley constitutes a single geographic entity. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

It is quite common for different sections of rivers and their valleys to be named differently. I am surprised that you are unaware of the phenomenon. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:12, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

If that happens, it is because there are still geographic or otherwise markers for distinct naming. However in this case there's nothing delimiting rest of Gilgit Valley from its upper section. Also what is use of having two ill-sourced, poorly written, and filled with OR, articles, when they can be merged and improved further? Or if you're unwilling to do so, then this article can be renamed and rewritten. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:21, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned, this is the "real Ghizer". But at the moment, the term Ghizer district has been used for Punial. So calling it simply "Ghizer" would cause confusion. Ghizer is also the name of a village inside this valley. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:15, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

For starters, what do you think constitutes "Ghizer"? What are its boundaries? I am not aware of Punial ever being called Ghizer District, since the former is a tehsil within later. As for the village, we already have an example of Astore (city). A separate article on Ghizer (village) can be created to avoid confusion. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:27, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

There are multiple meanings of Ghizer. But this is the original Ghizer, probably Phander and above. Below that, it seems to be called "Gupis". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:41, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

It is probably Phander, or is it Phander? Both Phander and Gupis are different towns, not valleys, fyi. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:54, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Phander is included in Ghizer Valley. Gupis is not. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:00, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Please provide sources for this claim. That being said, the issue of the current title having no geographic standing still remains. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:04, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Syed Mehdi Bukhari, The music of Ghizer's flowing river, Dawn, 17 June 2015. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:21, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Again, 1. This is not RS 2. It does not make reference to Ghizer as a valley 3. Reliability aside, it goes contrary to your earlier assertion that Phander is included in Ghizer Valley. Gupis is not since that's what it states: "The rulers of Chitral were known as Mehtar. The people they didn’t 'approve of' were exiled to Gupis in Ghizer."

For what it's worth, it seems to be dealing with the Ghizer District, not a valley or even a region. Sutyarashi (talk) 16:57, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

When it says "Gupis in Ghizer", it is talking about the historical Ghizer principality. But we are trying to describe what is called "Ghizer Valley" today. There could be variability there, with some people including Gupis and some people not. Kautilya3 (talk) 18:12, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

As you journey westward from Phandar, the landscape opens into an expanse of rivers, valleys, and pine-covered hills. This is the Ghizer District, a region of quiet dignity and immense charm. Here lie the valleys of Yasin and Ghizer, places where nature's simplicity hides breathtaking grandeur.

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:15, 30 April 2026 (UTC) Kautilya3 (talk) 18:15, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

This book fails every parameter of reliability. Self published, no ISBN, in no catalogue, cites zero source, nonsense wording and its content reads like it was generated by LLM.

Also I'm not sure why you're hell-bent to prove it a valley when RS state it to be part of Gilgit Valley, and the dispute can be easily resolved by a title change. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:43, 30 April 2026 (UTC)

Fine. Include Gupis too. It doesn't matter. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:50, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

Gupis can be mentioned in content if there are really RS calling it part of Ghizer. No source uses "Ghizer-Gupis" or something on line for it. Sutyarashi (talk) 08:15, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

References