Talk:Fatima Sheikh

Birth and death information

Hopefully, we can have a discussion about this without the disruptive edits. Reviewing the article history, it looks like the birth date was added here on 9 January 2022, the date of the Google Doodle. The death date was added here on 22 September 2022. Both were unsourced edits from new editors. The current article provides an 11 January 2024 indianexpress.com article as the source, but this seems likely to be citogenesis based on the timing and format of the dates.

Some additional data points:

• 5 April 2017 velivada.com article: no birth or death date given
• 7 April 2017 twocircles.net article: no birth or death date given
• 9 January 2018 theprint.in article: "Widely regarded as the first female Muslim teacher in India, she has been mentioned multiple times on Twitter, with accounts claiming 9 January to be her birth anniversary. While there is no evidence to support this, what is known is that Fatima Sheikh worked with Savitribai Phule to set up the first school for girls in her own house."

Are there any reliable sources for the birth and death dates and locations? Daniel Quinlan (talk) 00:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Per the above, my way would be to remove dates from lead and infobox while mentioning them somehow in the bio-section. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I think c. 1831 and c. 1900 would be enough, without any specific dates. The purpose of the dates is to give a rough timeframe and to be able distinguish from other personas with the same name in history. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It might be good enough for lead and infobox, but I still think the article body should comment on the "dispute". Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the date/year of death is based on, if anything?

@Daniel Quinlan, the indianexpress is from a year ago, WP-article looked like this, I don't follow why that makes citogenesis likely. Of course it's possible, but that's often the case. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I suppose you meant this version, which does have the dates that appear in The Indian Express. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Both versions seem to present the life-dates in an identical manner. If TOI wrote an article in jan 2024 and looked at WP for it, I don't see why they would look at a 2022 version. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The gullible Indian press believes anything that is convenient. And TOI is not even worth talking about. The version I pointed was the one that the Indian Express saw in 2023.

The date of death was added in this edit, by an editor that only made this one edit ever! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Avoiding WP:CITOGENESIS is a top priority, so I would support the removal of birth/death dates that are not rigorously sourced. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The dates are thrown into the article as a parenthetical "This is one of the few direct references in written records to Fatima (January 9, 1831-October 9, 1900), Savitribai’s long-term colleague and collaborator whose birth anniversary is celebrated on January 9." If the best and oldest reference we have for both dates is an article written after the dates were dubiously added to the Wikipedia article, it definitely seems like citogenesis. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 19:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

There's no source to support using circa for either date unless we can find a reliable source with some information that would allow us to extrapolate. The article body should note that her birthday is observed by some on 9 January 1831, which was also the date used by the Google Doodle. That, at least, can be sourced. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 19:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The 9 January observance predates Google Doodle. The year appeared only in Google. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think the year originates with the Google Doodle, but it is almost certainly the reason why 9 January 1831 has gained prominence in recent years. I found a 9 January 2020 velivada.com article predating the Google Doodle that mentions 1831 in an image that I believe would support "her birthday is observed by some on 9 January 1831", but I don't believe an infographic is sufficient for putting a date into the lead or infobox. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 21:28, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

If dates are not supported by good references, we should better drop it from the article. The article can be there without any date. And we can simply state that her birth and death dates are uncertain and 9 January is celebrated as a day of her remembrance. We can clarify that not much is known about her life. Nizil (talk) 19:04, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems like there is sufficient consensus to remove the remaining dates so I have made edits to that effect. I also added a quote by a Savitribai Phule biographer about this. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 23:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Imaginary Character And Fake Information

https://www.instagram.com/p/DEmfedoCP9C/?igsh=MWJvZjVtazF1OGpsMg== 2409:4060:2D34:9C98:C0B5:9F4E:4CF8:2008 (talk) 05:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

"And three years after the Google doodle, a feverish debate over her existence propelled Sheikh and the question of her legacy into the spotlight. Scholars combed through their books, every single cited source on Sheikh’s Wikipedia page was excavated, and screenshots of letters and books were forwarded. The result: A woman named Fatima Sheikh who was friends with Savitribai Phule certainly existed in the mid-nineteenth century." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 March 2025

Fatima Sheikh was a fictional character, according to this news. https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/pune-news/activist-claims-he-invented-story-of-first-muslim-teacher-fatima-sheikh-101736450611563.html 183.82.204.36 (talk) 14:21, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

Read it again, that's not what your news says. See also this news: Finding Fatima Sheikh: Scholars point to Phule’s letter, photo negative & British-era document. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:45, 8 March 2025 (UTC)