Talk:Duchy of Merania

Possible hoax

The following discussion pertains to a since deleted version of this article. Srnec (talk) 23:53, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I am suspicious. I got here via an odd posting on a fellow editor's talk page . It has been tagged for sourcing for years. I then, carelessly, linked this from Berthold, Duke of Merania, carelessly because that 1857 source may not be reliable (there was a mid 19th century gothic enthusiasm that produced a good many of fanciful "histories") I have not examined it closely, but it is part of a very small echo chamber. Moreover, I suspect WP:PROMO because someone is offering this title for sale, editors interested in becoming the Duke of Merania are advised to contact @ buy-nobility-titles.com.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:27, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

• a new, SPA is now asserting that he is working on behalf of the "current title holder" .E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:46, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

@E.M.Gregory: I stumbled here purely out of interest. I admit ignorance of duchy related subjects, but the edit history here is very strange. Let's assume the duchy did exist at some point. How realistic would it be to suddenly "revive" a duchy after 800 years? Would the titleholder even hold the supposed land? Or would it be purely titular? Lizard (talk) 00:13, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

It is inconceivable that it is a valid title. Or that it can be legally revived as one. It is more like those companies that used to sell stars as Christmas presents. All that this company can conceivably have the right to sell you is a pretty piece of paper, and, I suppose, the promise that they will not sell that particular piece of paper to anyone else. I had 2 reasons to post this instead of going SPEEDY DELETE - reasons in addition to my relative inexperience with Wikipedia hoaxes. One is that I would like back-up in arguing with teh article creator, who reinserted the material I had deleted, the other is that someone should probably consider the question of whether this long-defunct Duchy merits a page.@Lizard the Wizard:.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

It looks like all other Duchies of the Holy Roman Empire have at least some form of verifiable proof that they existed, whether it be references or a map showing their geographic location. This article has too many "probablys", which seems to me like a safe way to introduce false information. And it rambles on without saying much at all about the duchy itself, but at the same time without going into specific detail. "was given as a gift to a Russian prince who was married to a German Princess." and "The list goes on to other Dukes who have succeeded the title." This article was created in 2006 and had some major expansion in June 2011. We should try to find out how long the title has been "for sale", and if it lines up with major edits I'd say we can safely call it a hoax. Lizard (talk) 18:16, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

@E.M.Gregory: Lizard (talk) 04:09, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

• A search limited to 2010-2011 turned up this appearance on a "heraldry" site in 2011 (The College of the Hereditary Nobility of Hungary www.hungarianheraldry.org/istria/ Jun 19, 2011 - In 1173, the Hohenstaufen Emperor enfeoffed the Bavarian noble House of Andechs, who attached Istria to their Duchy of Merania. Aquileia regained Istria in ...) It's not there in 2009, 2010.
• But in 2012 we find (Buy the title Duke of Merania - Buy a nobility title www.buy-nobility-titles.com/herzog-von-meranien.html Jun 4, 2012 - Even though the Duchy of Merania had a fairly short-lived existence, some exceptionally influential noble families were involved. It was founded in the 12th ...) .
• However, reliable books such as Princely Brothers and Sisters: The Sibling Bond in German Politics, 1100-1250, Jonathan R. Lyon, Cornell University Press, 2012, p. 115 report the gift of this Duchy to the Andechs , Counts of Andechs. That is a good article to which the name of Duchy should redirect. I think just redirecting the article title would suffice. (Although I do wish to add that at £65 the title is a bargain; I am considering purchasing it and requesting that fellow editors address me henceforth as Your Grace.)@Lizard the Wizard:.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:32, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

@E.M.Gregory: Well then, it looks to me like:

• The Duchy of Merania probably did exist.
• Someone, looking to make some easy money, went looking for some obscure duchy to "sell."
• They found Merania some way or another, and fabricated a difficult-to-disprove but grandiose history covered in mystique, which they used as the selling point. That would explain the seemingly random expansion in June 2011.
• It being extremely obscure, not many people thought to question this article over the years. So it's been able to avoid the fate of such pages as the Bicholim conflict.

But yes, it does seem like a good idea to redirect this to Counts of Andechs, although I can't imagine the title sellers would take too kindly to that, Your Grace. Lizard (talk) 05:41, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

OR?

The cited source gives it a Slavic etymology, weird as that may seem. At least that is how I read it: Die vom slawischen morje = Meer abgeleitete Bezeichnung galt dem Küstenland von Dalmatien, das, zur Markgrafschaft Istrien gehörig, später an Ungarn gelangt war.

Also, what is the basis for including Duino? If you have other sources, please add them. Srnec (talk) 23:28, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Not OR.
My apologies for not having included any source in my previous edit: I will certainly do it next time soonish.
All sources (not so many indeed) I've been reading about Merania, state that the name comes from the German word for sea, meer, as Land am Meere, Meer-an. As this Duchy extended along the shores of the North Adriatic sea, under the direct control of the Germanic States/Empire. It makes much sense, indeed, both etymologically and historically, as the Duchy was basically an institution of the Holy Roman Empire, governed by German dukes. In addition, Merania seems to be a noun not used (possibly never?) by local Slavic speakers to identify that region. Taking also into account that Slavic settlements and domains by the sea, differently from the German ones, were found all along the Eastern shore of the Adriatic, and not only in the area most likely under this Duchy. Merania was a name coined and used mainly by German speakers.
On the other hand, the source you mention doesn't really explain how Merania could possibly descend from the word morje. He just states it... frankly, not enough. On top of that, Reindel seems to make a pretty basic mistake here, as maritime Dalmatia never belonged to the Margraviate of Istria, as he writes... Is he familiar with the area and its history? I'd suggest to use another source for this matter.
The main source I consulted is Giovanni Kobler, the preeminent historian of its times of Rijeka/Fiume and the surrounding region. He writes about Merania in his main work: Memorie per la storia della liburnica città di Fiume, chapter 7: The Duchy of Merania, from page 47. In those pages he also quotes other sources in support, firstly Franz von Krones, but also Daniele Farlati, August Dimitz and others, who all suggest the same etymology for this toponym.

Regarding Duino, its house members were apparently entitled also lords of the dominion of Merania after the Andechs. I will double-check in the sources if Duino and its territory were also considered part of Merania or not. --ElCovo (talk) 19:42, 25 May 2020 (UTC)