Talk:Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon

Requested move 11 March 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 15:40, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

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• Cadwaladr → Cadwaladr FendigaidCadwaladr Fendigaid
• Cadwaladr (name) → Cadwaladr

– Rachel Bromwich begins her encyclopaedic entry discussing this Cadwaladr in her edition of Trioedd Ynys Prydein with the name Katwaladyr Ỽendigeit, i.e. the Middle Welsh form of Cadwaladr Fendigaid (p. 298). The page Cadwaladr should then rather redirect to Cadwaladr (name) as it is not at all an uncommon name in medieval Wales, see, e.g. Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd. Tipcake (talk) 15:14, 11 March 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 16:32, 18 March 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. {{GearsDatapacks|talk|contribs}} 16:30, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

• Weak oppose, not sure why "Cadwaladr Fendigaid" should be prioritised over the current full lead name "Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon", which overwhelmingly leads on ngrams. Concerning primary topic, this article still outranks all the others articles on those with it as a first name. DankJae 18:45, 30 March 2026 (UTC)

  Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon is fine too, and would maybe be better and more neutral since the 'Bendigaid' bit assumes in some part the legend of his sanctity and the prophetic material. But he's still not the only Cadwaladr and neither is he generally known just by his own name because of the preponderance of others! Tipcake (talk) 06:02, 31 March 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Red Dragon of Cadwaladr

There is no evidence of The Red Dragon flown by Henry Tudor being called "The Red Dragon of Cadwaladr" until 1718 in Alexander Nisbet's "An Essay on the Ancient and Modern use of Armories",so I think the Dragon shouldn't be referred to as such in the Article without a Footnote or something like that. Illia2 (talk) 01:37, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

Just because that is what is said in a YouTube video does not mean it is true: See here, p. 36: The first time a dragon is connected with Cadwalader seems to be in a sixteenth-century book of banners and badges where Le Roy Cadwalader is represented by his customary arms supported by a dragon, or and gules, with wings expanded. Tipcake (talk) 13:22, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

I couldn't access the source you provided Illia2 (talk) 03:45, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

Odd, if you google 'the british history in early tudor propaganda' it should be the first result, however. Tipcake (talk) 10:06, 17 March 2026 (UTC)

I read it, I do not think it supports your arguement

Excerpt from page 36 in "THE BRITISH HISTORY IN EARLY TUDOR PROPAGANDA":

"The appearance of the red dragon symbol at the end of the

fifteenth century is usually interpreted as an allusion to the Tudor

Welsh descent which was traced to Cadwalader, the last British

king, and the creature is customarily referred to as the Red Dragon

of Cadwalader or the Welsh Dragon. Yet the compilers of books

of arms in the fifteenth century never assigned the badge to

Cadwalader whose arms were invariably given as azure, a cross

patte fitche or. 2 The first time a dragon is connected with Cad-

walader seems to be in a sixteenth-century book of banners and

badges where Le Roy Cadwalader is represented by his customary

arms supported by a dragon, or and gules, with wings expanded. 3

This is an isolated instance and probably reflects the identification

of Cadwalader, the prophecy made to him, and the original dragon

prophecy, that has become increasingly popular as the themes

have become remote and confused. The weight of armorial

evidence is against a Cadwalader dragon. Further negative evid-

ence is afforded by contemporary chroniclers who write of the

royal beast as the Red Dragon Dreadful 4 but never connect it with

the name Cadwalader. The accounts of Henry VII's presentation

of his battle standards at St. Paul's in 1485 do not refer to his

dragon standard as of Cadwalader ; neither does Hall in his

later version of the story. "

The book it was refered to used a red dragon in the seal of Cadwalader, however, it is an isolated reference and is not a Welsh or even British source and could very well be a misattribution influenced by Tudor propaganda.

The source you linked specifically refutes your allegation of a sixteenth century origin.

Just because research is published in a video form does not mean it is false. The video is well sourced, highly referenced and is supported by contemporary sources.

Either way, I think the video and sources referenced by it provide enough doubt to make the claim of the dragon being attributed and refered to Cadwalader doubtful at best. Ritasuma12 (talk) 23:05, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

According to Siddons it occurs in other early armorial manuscripts of the sixteenth century. And Cadwaladr was identified as the dragon in the fifteenth century, as you can read in the Wikipedia article. The point is it's earlier than the eighteenth century as the video claims. The relevant manuscripts is English and records the arms of many other English nobles, it is just written in French as memory serves as a legacy of the Conquest I suppose. It's hardly medieval or relevant to Cadwaladr's time but becuase he was a figure of much pseudohistorical and prophetic interest (like the dragon) it's a natural if much confused association to make. Tipcake (talk) 03:01, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

Requested move 2 April 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 22:54, 9 April 2026 (UTC)

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Cadwaladr → Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon – @DankJae: I forgot to ping you; per our previous discussion, perhaps 'Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon' is a better name for the page? After all, the weight of argument does not seem to suggest that Cadwaladr was considered a saint before Geoffrey of Monmouth's fictitious depiction of him. Tipcake (talk) 15:59, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

• Oh didn't notice your reply above. But as per above "ap Cadwallon" is more used than your original proposal, so now it is just whether this is still primary for "Cadwaladr". If stretching to more Cadwaladr (name) articles to those with it as a surname, this article being the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Cadwaladr" gets weaker. So I guess I am fine with Cadwaladr → Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon, while Cadwaladr (name) → Cadwaladr, the latter as per your original proposal. DankJae 17:23, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:agree move - I felt the move to Fendigaid was overly reliant on the Welsh language for Wikipedia English. And looking at the Cadwaladr list, it seems the name is common enough for a disambiguation page. So, Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon seems a best fit to please all parties involved. Cltjames (talk) 01:21, 3 April 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.