Talk:Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Avengers Roster

Why Avengers Roster should be only upto Avengers: Age of Ultron. There are many superheroes who joined Avengers after that also. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 07:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ringardiumleviossa: Any hero in the MCU can be considered 'an Avenger'. They only count as such if they actually join the organization. The ones added after Age of Ultron cannot be proved to be members. IronManCap (talk) 15:22, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Okkk but what about Quicksilver. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 19:54, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ringardiumleviossa: Quicksilver never officially joined the organization. The others like Wanda and Falcon count because they joined at the end of the film. IronManCap (talk) 20:43, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

And what about Spider-Man? He was made official Avengers by Iron Man in Avengers: Infinity War. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 20:05, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Added —El Millo (talk) 20:22, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

And at starting of Avengers: Endgame, Natasha Romanoff was leading a group of superheroes (Okoye, Rocket Raccoon, Nebula, Captain Marvel, War Machine) that may possible Avengers. But even if they aren't Nebula, Rocket Raccoon and later Ant-Man were shown wearing Avengers uniform during Time-Heist along with other Avengers. So Rocket Raccoon, Nebula and Ant-Man are also not Avengers because in films they do have Avengers logo on them and when Tony asked about Avengers to be assembled they also were included. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 05:18, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ringardiumleviossa: War Machine is already included. Okoye was likely just an ambassador for Wakanda and probably did not join the organization. Captain Marvel was merely informing Romanoff about the situation, not proving her as a member. The thing about having Avengers logos on the suits is a good point, although that could just be as they are using Avengers equipment. IronManCap (talk) 20:50, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Okkk...but when Iron Man asked if the team is being assembled that also included Nebula, Rocket Raccoon and Ant-Man and even have their conclusions at the end of Avengers: Endgame, Ant-Man going to his family, Nebula and Rocket Raccoon rejoined Guardians of the Galaxy. And they should be in list as they are members of Avengers cause nobody wears costume with Avengers logo if they aren't. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 04:29, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I'm willing to include Rocket and Nebula with a pinch of salt. IronManCap (talk) 11:23, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I'll put in Lang too. IronManCap (talk) 11:35, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Other Characters on the Team roster section

It's lengthy and the information is already on the team biography section. Why it shouldn't be summarized. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 21:22, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

It is a relatively short subsection, and it is the best way of including certain references. The fictional team bio is what is really lengthy, which I am shortening. IronManCap (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Okk. But still I think we should remove the organization listed over there. Because S.H.I.E.L.D. also have been affiliated to Avengers and had fought alongside during Battle of Sokovia and but why it's not even included? The subsection is about other characters, right? The organization still can appear in the Team biography and infobox of Avengers. Or we should add S.H.I.E.L.D. into it too. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 21:54, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I feel like mentioning that the big three of S.H.I.E.L.D. (Nick Fury, Phil Coulson and Maria Hill) and the organization itself will be fine but let’s not overdo it.Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 22:12, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

The addition of Phil Coulson must be either changed or removed. As it is now, listing him as inspiration for the Avengers to continue fighting, reads like trivia. —El Millo (talk) 22:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done: modified description. IronManCap (talk) 22:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Works for me. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:01, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Much better. —El Millo (talk) 01:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Aragorn. Is that you?

Is the source cited justifiable to call the flying horse Aragorn (like in the comics) officially. Note the MCU Wikia page and Marvel Database uses that as the horses name in the profile too. I am just uncertain myself of how to convey it. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:28, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Here is a duplicate. I think I will leave it as as since it's not notable enough distinction.Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:41, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Hark! Another source calls the horse Aragorn here. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Seems good enough. IronManCap (talk) 00:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The article's readiness and plot condensing

Ok I did my best for its readiness. I would recommend plot condensing (which I am not good at). I myself feel it ready for mainspace if the plot issue goes away and I welcome more thoughts on the subject and improvements as well. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 04:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

@Jhenderson777: You've done some good work here, I'll try and cleanup the plot and then this is definitely mainspace ready. IronManCap (talk) 12:33, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Ok continue. I will try not to get in the way. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 14:07, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done, seems about mainspace-ready now if you ask me. IronManCap (talk) 16:56, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I guess we should request it then. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested at Talk:Characters of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. IronManCap (talk) 19:09, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Purpose

Is there some sort of official 'purpose' we can use (like a sourced synopsis or a Nick Fury quote) for the infobox that isn't WP:OR? IronManCap (talk) 20:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Quote form Nick Fury sounds plausible. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 20:58, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I thought about using the 'there was an idea' quote, but that didn't really explicitly state the purpose. Most 'official' purpose I could find was The initiative will defend Earth from imminent global threats from Captain Marvel. (YouTube - 0:18). IronManCap (talk) 22:18, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

What you did seems fine.Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 22:37, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Marvel Avengers station

Apparently there is a variety of places called Marvel Avengers station. (Proof:here, here and an upcoming one here) Worth the addition on cultural impact? Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Sure, but don't use those sources as Trip Advisor and Toronto Sun aren't reliable sources. IronManCap (talk) 23:04, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Toronto Sun is. But I just found out there is a main website for all locations . Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:08, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Alright, I was associating Toronto Sun with the deprecated The Sun, but seems they're unaffiliated. The main website is good for use as a primary source. IronManCap (talk) 23:12, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done.I added it and the image (if the image lasts on Commons). Happy editing. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Also not worried about a revert of image placement. Cheers! Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:40, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Inspired media

Here is a source for one inspired media Avengers: Damage Control. I just felt like help somebody jump start it if they want since I am kind of worn out on editing. There is other video games based on the team too that would be helpful too. Woohoo on it being in mainspace though!

• Hardawar, D. "'Avengers Damage Control' is the ideal VR follow-up to 'Endgame'". Engadget. Retrieved 14 May 2021.Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 00:13, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• Porter, Rick (23 April 2021). "ESPN, Marvel Team Up for Superhero-Filled NBA Telecast". The Hollywood Reporter. Retrieved 15 May 2021.
• Hughes, Katie (23 April 2021). "ESPN & Marvel to Offer First NBA Special Edition Presented by State Farm: Marvel's Arena of Heroes Alternate Presentation for Golden State Warriors vs. New Orleans Pelicans Game on May 3". ESPN Press Room U.S. Retrieved 15 May 2021.Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 13:31, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

DYK hook

I might nominate this as a DYK hook in the main page. Any idea of what the best hook may be? Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 13:43, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Pinging @TriiipleThreat: on this question. I believe he used to do them quite frequently. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 13:49, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Captain Marvel to the roster

So I’m just putting in what pretty much everyone on here has agreed to put in already. Every MCU film wiki editor has agreed she’s an Avenger, as it’s stated on her character page and on The Marvels cast section as well. If it’s wrong then, I am wrong. But again I’m just going by what seems to be the consensus among the MCU film community here. --Kinsley Bottom (talk) 03:28, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I found a source from Marvel saying she joins the team in Endgame. We just can't add these without either explicit confirmation in the film or a reliable source that states she joins the team. —El Millo (talk) 03:44, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I’m sorry about that, it’s just I assumed she was forgotten because it’s stated on her pages plus considering this page was created recently. --Kinsley Bottom (talk) 03:46, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Other characters in the Team roster section.

I've seen many anonymously edits in this section but whoever is doing this should be stop doing. But still some of the editor's edit are not wrong. Maybe we should discuss here first then add it into the mainspace. Vikenviksingh (talk) 06:12, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@Vikenviksingh: Discussion is encouraged per WP:BRD, and the edits to the section seem to be in WP:GOODFAITH, although I personally think the section currently already clarifies everything the IP has been adding. IronManCap (talk) 10:51, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

I also personally think that the section clearifies everything but but it seems a little bit overcrowded. Maybe the section need some cleanups and organising it would be great. Vikenviksingh (talk) 08:07, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

@Vikenviksingh: Sure the section needs a little bit or organisation and cleanup. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 11:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

RfC

(spoiler) At the end of Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, the character Bruce Banner welcomes both Katy Chen and him to the team. Should her name be added here and here? although I didn't hear the word 'avengers'. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 09:06, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

No, it's still too early to tell if she'll be an Avenger. —El Millo (talk) 12:22, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

No, per El Millo. --BDD (talk) 15:47, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I saw that this was added without agreed upon consensus so I reverted it. Also relisted the team as "Defunct" as of 2023. Agreed, too early to determine based just on that scene.Bloodyboppa (talk) 19:57, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

This sounds like the characters were hinted at joining the Avengers. Was this in a post-credits scene, by any chance? Leave them off till the film has been made, but add a line or two about the hint itself.

And @Bloodyboppa, WP:BOLD edits don’t require consensus first, but we should avoid editing the page back and forth while there is an RFC underway. I’m less familiar with the MCU than you no doubt, but the article doesn’t appear to support the team being defunct. If the defunct date is included though, it should probably note (in universe) or similar, to not confuse naïve readers at the top of the page. — HTGS (talk) 21:08, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

No, per El Millo. IronManCap (talk) 11:09, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Regarding Shag-Chi, Marvel Studios has named him the new Avenger Cornerstonepicker (talk) 00:35, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure all MCU heroes are colloquially known as Avengers (even Howard the Duck). The issue is getting onscreen or reliably sourced confirmation that they have joined the roster. IronManCap (talk) 11:09, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Plenty of people on Twitter appear to disagree; does a character have to appear in universe as an Avenger to qualify? Probably best to just explain the situation when listing him (eg: “has not appeared with Avengers team on screen, but is endorsed as an Avenger by Marvel, and welcomed to the team by Banner” etc…). — HTGS (talk) 01:32, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

No, per El Millo. Sea Ane (talk) 20:18, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

No, per El Millo. — ChannelSpider (talk) 23:57, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

No, it's probably too early to tell, as pointed out by El Millo. Idealigic (talk) 13:11, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Reading, here the belief is she ‘will be’ but is not yet one. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:50, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Okoye

Should Okoye be added to the MCU roster? She was present at Natasha Romanoff's Avengers meetings during Endgame. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.134.30 (talk) 02:22, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

This has previously been discussed at § Avengers Roster, in which it was agreed that Okoye is not considered an Avenger. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:50, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Wanda Maximoff in Roster

What are our collective thoughts regarding adding a "Departure" for Wanda following events of Doctor Strange 2? Obviously her fate is left ambiguous, but I wanted to get a consensus. Bloodyboppa (talk) 14:32, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Any thought people have is WP:OR. Until there is a new Avengers film or a film featuring the Avengers, any changes to the rooster is pure speculation. Gonnym (talk) 14:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Timeline

Can anyone add the timeline of activity of Avengers members? Vikenviksingh (talk) 07:20, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@Vikenviksingh: could you please clarify what you mean? IronManCap (talk) 10:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

I meant official timeline of MCU is already known and out. Can anyone create a timeline of years when individuals were active as an avengers. For example Steve Rogers/ Captain America was active in 2012, 2015-2016, 2018, 2023. Maybe it would help if the edit is done in diagram or graphical way. Vikenviksingh (talk) 11:11, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Timeline

  Active as an Avenger.

Member	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018
Tony Stark
Bruce Banner
Thor
Steve Rogers
Natasha Romanoff
Clint Barton
James Rhodes
Wanda Maximoff
Vision
Sam Wilson
Peter Parker

Vikenviksingh (talk) 08:20, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

References

@Vikenviksingh: You've got a very nice concept here, but it's missing a few members, so I have transferred it to a sandbox here where we can work on it to get it to the full version. Feel free to continue it there if you wish. IronManCap (talk) 13:24, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion the above table is unneeded. Look at all that "dead" space. --Gonnym (talk) 13:49, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Gonnym: "Dead" space is for inacitivity of Avengers. It may be unnecessary but it is full of information, which is motive of wikipedia, sharing information. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 15:56, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I understand what that space is for. Not everything that exists should be in Wikipedia and not everything needs a table. This for example is a prime example of something that does not need a table. --Gonnym (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Gonnym: @Ringardiumleviossa: Thanks for your opinions. This page is already having great number of views. We should make more resourceful. Vikenviksingh (talk) 16:04, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@IronManCap: I only added members upto Peter Parker because official Marvel website has written history of Avengers only upto 2018. If we are going to transfer this information into main space. We have to wait till Marvel update their page because we don't know who were members between 2018-2023, when they joined, when they left. But we can edit this in the reference of many newspaper, articles, etc. Vikenviksingh (talk) 16:23, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Vikenviksingh: Gonnym has a good point in that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, although the sources could be useful for inclusion. I think we should maybe reformat this into a column on the Team Roster section and use the refs there, in a way that reduces any concerns over WP:FANCRUFT or unnecessary other stuff. IronManCap (talk) 18:52, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Over a year later, someone has now added in a timeline, but it uses the timeline extension instead of an actual table. This addresses the concerns with "dead space", so I think it can be kept for now. Unless @Gonnym still finds it indiscriminate/trivial? InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:42, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

That still seems to me trivial, and personally I think it also looks like garbage. The timeline extension cannot be made to look good no matter what. Gonnym (talk) 05:46, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

It probably also is not color blind accessible. Gonnym (talk) 05:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I'll remove it then. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Pietro Maximoff to the roster.

In Guidebooks to Marvel Cinematic Universe books that are canon: Pietro Maximoff is included in Avengers many times. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 07:59, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ringardiumleviossa: The Guidebook to the Marvel Cinematic Universe is just a guide, not a canon story. Also, you'll need a reliable source proving he is indeed an official Avengers member. IronManCap (talk) 19:10, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh, come on. Everything in the Guides of MCU is canon in the films except the fact that Pietro isn't member of Avengers? Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 20:01, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I didn't say that. I said it's just a guide to the MCU. Anyway, forget 'canon' or not, bring a reliable source that says he's an official Avenger, rather than just a colloquial one. IronManCap (talk) 20:03, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

https://www.cbr.com/why-marvel-killed-quicksilver-avengers-age-of-ultron

https://www.etonline.com/movies/164003_why_avengers_age_of_ultron_killed_off_the_wrong_character Vikenviksingh (talk) 04:10, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Neither of those sources say he officially joined the Avengers. InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:15, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

First please read whole talk section of this, it was agreed to find reliable source even if it is one. In this references, Pietro is called an "Avenger". And about the thing Pietro not joining officially so read this:

https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/avengers-endgame-refresher-captain-marvel

This is the reference that leads to Captain Marvel's inclusion in this Wikipedia page. In this, she is also named an "Avenger" but there is nothing that says she has officially joined Avengers so if it's the case, why is she in the team? Vikenviksingh (talk) 14:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I think Okoye should be in the team roster

Hello, I need to argue something that is debatable: The thing is that I think Okoye should be on the team roster for this reasons: One, if you notice that in the theatrical poster of Avengers: Endgame only the surviving members of the Avengers with Thanos appear including Okoye. Two, some websites such as Marvel Cinematic Universe, Marvel Movies, and Heroes Wiki put Okoye as a member of the Avengers. so what do you guys think? After reading what I put, would you consider Okoye a member of the Avengers? I do not consider it 100%, so I put this message in this talk to see what you guys think. Pablo the Helper - To your service! 00:27, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

You're going to need to provide a reliable source that supports that, in addition to evidence from the films' plots. The MCU Wiki and other Fandom wikis are not considered reliable sources, and your argument about the Endgame poster is WP:OR (and kind of a stretch, if you ask me). InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:24, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Add MODOK to the roster

Spoiler warning:

He was declared an avenger by Scott Lang, an active member, just before his death. If the armies and individuals in Endgame declared Avengers by Captain America are here, then MODOK should be as well. DoggedCorn (talk) 20:05, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

This was clearly intended as a joke in the film and not taken seriously by the rest of the characters when said by MODOK. —El Millo (talk) 20:11, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I think it's still worth a mention DoggedCorn (talk) 21:09, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't. I think it's trivial. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:21, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree, trivial. —El Millo (talk) 21:30, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

It's a trivial joke. Not worth mentioning. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:37, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Is it even worth mentioning him under "Other characters" like he currently is? -- ZooBlazer^talk 07:00, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think so, we should remove it. —El Millo (talk) 07:12, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Individuals like Cassie Lang, Hank Pym, Darren Cross / M.O.D.O.K., and the citizens of the Quantum Realm fight the exiled Kang the Conqueror and his army of Quantumnauts alongside the Avenger Scott Lang / Ant-Man during the Battle of the Quantum Realm

Is he the only one that should be removed? And that battle name feels like the same situation we had with the final battle of Endgame. -- ZooBlazer^talk 02:23, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I think we shouldn't mention MODOK in "Other characters" as it was a joke, noting the joke does not justify it. I don't think we should be mentioning the events of Quantumania on this article in that section or in the "Aftermatch" section specifically as it only pertains to one Avengers member (Scott), and not the team as a whole, and these characters allied with Scott, not the Avengers. The Little Guy info should remain, although we have to be careful of what is about the team or just individual members. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:36, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the Quantumania stuff is fine in aftermath. That section has been mostly for what the team members have done following Endgame. I did remove Cross from the other characters and the aftermath section though. -- ZooBlazer^talk 02:47, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I suppose that makes sense, as long as it does not diverge too much from this article's scope of the team. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:53, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Adding another point to this. We should not be conceiving our own terms for these fictional events, and considering that battle one is only used once here (where it shouldn't be mentioned) and was only added by a since blocked IP in May, I don't think there is much credence for it to remain. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

At least it's not as ridiculous as what the fan wiki is calling it ... in all seriousness, I agree, no fan-coined terms on Wikipedia. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:27, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

The Harvest

Trying not to get too deep into Secret Invasion spoilers here, but is the Harvest worth mixing into the Aftermath section or elsewhere in the article? I feel like at the very least it should be mentioned somewhere, but if others feel differently, then I won't add anything. -- ZooBlazer^talk 04:40, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I ended up just adding a little info for it. Feel free to move it somewhere else or remove it if you feel it shouldn't be in the article. -- ZooBlazer^talk 16:14, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I think it's worth a mention. InfiniteNexus (talk) 15:39, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Aftermath section

The article failed the first GA attempt and one of the issues brought up was the aftermath section - At some points, the section doesn't discuss the team as a whole, but individual characters. This is especially apparent in "Aftermath" subsection, which details what happens to every single one of the Avengers post-disbandment

What should we do with the section? -- ZooBlazer^talk 20:16, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

This does go back to concerns I raised in the recent MODOK discussion about the Aftermath section's focus relying too much on individual characters who were on the team but not about the team itself. We have in-universe information at the individual character articles and film and TV articles for a reason. That section as it currently stands explains the events of post-Endgame material which does not specifically revolve around the Avengers team, and I think that should be an area of caution and avoidance. Summarizing the plot of a movie or series with an Avenger as the lead but not the team in it themselves seems irrelevant to this article. We do not need to state what each Avenger did after Endgame here, and should keep it down to information on the Avengers team themselves, such as the Harvest, Lang's book interpretation of the Endgame battle, the Council of Kang's reaction to the 616 Avengers, AvengersCon, and potentially some of the Avengers' retirements or departures from the team as a capper without divulging too far away from this article's subject, although I am less confident on the lattermost and think that we can summarize it with the team disbanding and leave specifics on the characters' fates and future to more relevant articles. Trailblazer101 (talk) 21:34, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Alright, I cut out a lot of the unnecessary info, but didn't do much more than that yet. Also renamed the section. -- ZooBlazer^talk 21:50, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Earth

The "Battle at the Avengers Compound" has been officially named "Battle of Earth" in the second last episode of Secret Invasion. Do we have to rename that section? Redjedi23 (talk) 16:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

We had a discussion for this naming at Talk:Thor: Love and Thunder#Battle of Earth, where it was agreed we can use "Battle of Earth" as the official MCU name for properties where it is used (such as Ms. Marvel and Secret Invasion), and to use "the battle at the Avengers Compound" phrasing in plot summaries as a description for properties that don't use the "Battle of Earth" name. This article could use either one, dependent on what it is referring to in context. I would say the "Battle of Earth" term should be addressed within the context of the SI events and the Harvest. Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:54, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

In the absolute worst case and in case there is a disambiguation needed, a footnote should suffice. Dcdiehardfan (talk) 19:35, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Merge?

This is a great article – thanks for all the work to get it here. There does seem to be a lot of overlap with Avengers (comics) – wouldn’t it be better for our readers if these were made into a single article? Onceinawhile (talk) 09:27, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

A lot of overlap? There's some comic info when talking about early development of the first movie and then a "differences from the comics" section. Other than that, the majority of the article has nothing to do with the comics, unless you're counting characters having the same names. -- ZooBlazer 17:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

No. Avengers (comics) is long enough and if these pages are merged, the MCU content will have to be greatly reduced as it will have undue weight in that article, which then defeats the purpose of the merge. Gonnym (talk) 18:09, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Planned Good Topic

Now that this article has been promoted to a GA, I wanted to bring up the idea of a planned Avengers Good Topic again. I brought up the idea on the MCU task force talk page back in July, but I figured it should be brought back up here now that just two more articles need to be promoted to GA of the ones I had planned to include. Those being Production of Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame (currently nominated for GA) and Avengers assemble scene (should be nominated soon).

The planned topic would look something like assuming those two articles are promoted to GAs (formatting is subject to change):

Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe)

10 articles

The Avengers

Accolades

Age of Ultron

Infinity War

Accolades

Endgame

Accolades

"Avengers assemble" scene

Production of Infinity War and Endgame

I mostly bring this up to make sure there is time to talk about any arguments on other potential additions while the GA process concludes for the other articles, or if nothing else needs to be included until Avengers 5 (unless an article for something like the Avengers theme gets created between now and then for example). -- ZooBlazer 02:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Per the original discussion, some of the other options included the soundtracks for each film, Avengers Campus, and potentially Lego Marvel's Avengers. I guess other options based on Category:Avengers (film series) could be What If... the World Lost Its Mightiest Heroes?, What If... Peter Quill Attacked Earth's Mightiest Heroes?, and What If... the Avengers Assembled in 1602?. Of all of those, I feel like only the soundtracks really could maybe have an argument to be included. The criteria for WP:GT states A topic must not cherry-pick only the best articles to become featured together, while also saying a set of similar, interrelated articles or lists that cover a specific topic. I feel like the scope of the topic is to focus on the films, while the accolades covers what is seen in the films. Not every subpage has to be included. -- ZooBlazer 07:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it shouldn't add more articles since every important article it's already there. BigLordFlash^talk 15:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Add current alive or deceased state to the roster under status

The member roster states former or current status but no note if the character is alive or dead. I think this would help. 100.43.112.168 (talk) 19:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Those were previously removed as WP:FANCRUFT in-universe details not particularly necessary for this table. The fate of the characters is already explained in the fictional biography. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

needs vitality rating

. 216.164.249.213 (talk) 11:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No articles need a vital rating, although I am not sure this once is necessary or if it would be accepted as other MCU articles did not reach this when proposed. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:13, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

the most commercially successful movie franchise of all time by far needs a vitality rating yes, and it needs to be at least 4 216.164.249.213 (talk) 00:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

This article is about the roster of characters, not the film series. Besides, Marvel Cinematic Universe is already a level-5 vital article, and these character articles were deemed to fall under that one in terms of vitability. The MCU is the broad topic for what you are suggesting. Trailblazer101 (talk) 00:47, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

the article for luffy from one piece (pretty much 0 following outside japan and ph) has a vital rating. level 5 means the article is among the 50,000 most important articles on the site, so yes, the characters from the most popular movie franchise in the world deserve to be a part of it, and honestly they deserve to be in levels 4 or 3 too (although i'm aware the latter will never happen as there is a strong historic bias on wikipedia) 216.164.249.213 (talk) 05:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

We do not determine vitability at the article talks. That is handled at WP:Vital articles. If you feel this should be included, take it there, not here (though I caution that it is unlikely to pass). WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS in regards to the example you provided, as not everything is vetted the same or by the same editors. Trailblazer101 (talk) 06:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:OSE is for deletion because people can create an article without much vetting. as you've pointed out vital ratings are vetted much more so it doesn't really apply.

i wasn't aware there was a designated place to post these. i'm aware of the vital articles page but i don't see any place to start a discussion about an specific article 216.164.249.213 (talk) 07:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Addition of Okoye in the team roster

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This discussion was started by a user who is now banned for sockpuppetry. Multiple additional accounts of theirs were used in this conversation as well. -- ZooBlazer 18:03, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

---

As per previous discussion on Okoye, some reliable sources were needed to prove that she officially joined Avengers in Avengers: Endgame. So here are the sources that will help in her addition to the team roster:

• https://screenrant.com/black-panther-wakanda-forever-okoye-avengers-setup/
• https://screenrant.com/black-panther-2-okoye-throne-deleted-scene-important/
• https://www.motionpictures.org/2019/07/danai-gurira-confirms-her-return-as-okoye-in-black-panther-2/

Crampsteed (talk) 06:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Also list her in both chronological and alphabetical order — above Nebula. Crampsteed (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Okoye being in the team. Littlesquirrell (talk) 13:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I pinged few frequent editors (@InfiniteNexus, @Trailblazer101 and @ZooBlazer) who frequently participated in recent discussion, only because this discussion is needed before adding a member in team roster — as per comment. Although I'm surprised as this article has history of fast replies within 6 hours. Crampsteed (talk) 16:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

None of these are direct confirmation that Okoye officially joined the team and are just these blogs' own determinations. We need something a little more concrete than a couple sites coming to the same conclusion without an official confirmation. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Trailblazer101, editors had mixed opinion regarding Okoye's inclusion in the team roster. Many were in favour and she was also added many times, only to be removed by those who disagreed on one major point that there were no reliable sources which were needed. Now not only 1 but I've been able to provide 3 sources. Even though Captain Marvel's inclusion in the team was on the basis of this 1 source () which itself was primary source and didn't have direct confirmation of her joining the team. Secondly, these are not from blogs (i.e., WordPress, etc) as they reliable secondary sources as per WP:RS. If anyone still have doubt, they can ask at Reliable sources/Noticeboard about them. Also, there is direct confirmation of Okoye joining the team in these sources, even word like "officially joined" is used. Crampsteed (talk) 17:20, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I've found only 2 secondary sources regarding Captain Marvel and so that her status won't be challenged in future, I'm referencing them here - and Crampsteed (talk) 17:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Prior consensus is that Okoye is not clearly shown to be an Avenger in the film itself. All we can say from that is that she worked alongside them. Marvel.com has some affiliation with the rest of Marvel, so I would argue that is a more reputable source than Screen Rant and The Credits (not saying those are not reliable, just that they are stating something that has not been confirmed by Marvel or the creatives involved, and are thus coming to their own interpretations). Also, Carol Danvers' status is not in contention here. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

If you read archived discussions, you'll notice the same situation had happened with Pietro Maximoff and Captain Marvel's inclusion that is happening with Okoye. I'm hopeful that just like them, she'll be added in the roster as per my points in this discussion. Also, I'm sure that previous consensus was to provide a reliable source. If we're talking about Marvel.com, here is the official article of Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe) — but we can't take it into account as in it Black Panther and Wasp, who were never members in the films — are included in the team. And unfortunately, Okoye's history according to Marvel.com is limited to Avengers: Infinity War; so that only left with the option of taking these secondary sources into account as per WP:RS. Crampsteed (talk) 18:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

For simplicity, I think we should limit the list to those who directly worked alongside the Avengers. For Endgame, that would be those who participated in the Time Heist (plus Captain Marvel, who worked with the Avengers at the beginning). InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:14, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

In Endgame, Captain Marvel was present in the holographic meeting along Avengers. For the rest of the film, she didn't participated in Time Heist and lastly joined Battle of Earth. In the film's beginning, Captain Marvel was planning to deal with Thanos alone, which shows she didn't joined Avengers right away. The situation is same as Okoye: given starring credit in the film, appeared in meeting and joined last battle. Vinbrad (talk) 06:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this. -- ZooBlazer 06:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll opine that as said in WP:CON, consensus is an effort to address editors' legitimate concerns through a process of compromise while following Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, as Wikipedia is not democracy Your discussion (even polls sometimes) needs to be supported by those policies and guidelines if they exists; which is clearly done by @Crampsteed here. If the consensus is still tied, we can reach out for third opinion. Also, I agree with Okoye's addition, per @Crampsteed so you just rather have to be bold and add her. Vinbrad (talk) 05:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

For those arguing in favor of the inclusion of Okoye, Captain Marvel, or anyone else who worked with the Avengers but did not participate in the Time Heist, by that same logic, technically everyone who arrived through the portals and responded to Cap's call in the Avengers assemble scene should be listed as Avengers on this page. Just because certain characters worked with the Avengers, that doesn't automatically make them part of the team. And technically, when Black Widow was conversing with Okoye, Captain Marvel, and Rhodey, the Avengers weren't actively functioning as a group. With that in mind, I would be in support of limiting the team lineup to those who actually functioned as confirmed members of the group. User:Jgstokes (talk)—We can disagree without becoming disagreeable. 05:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@User:Jgstokes The arguments aren't about adding members who worked with Avengers, they were stretched a bit. My points were of previous discussions on Okoye and reliable sources. I'm not agreeing and disagreeing in my following statement — Do you know your reply contradicts Captain Marvel's inclusion in the team and also Black Widow's leadership (2018-2023) which is present in the infobox?. Crampsteed (talk) 06:16, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I am all in favour of the addition of Okoye but I am also in favour of considering the clear-cut mixed opinions on the consensus. My suggestion is to wait for now, without discrediting Okoye's status as Avenger. We should wait for Avengers: Doomsday and Avengers: Secret Wars to see her involvement (as remaining members have history of participating in sequels too). Relyone (talk) 08:59, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this. Vinbrad (talk) 05:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Original Roster? (4 or 6)

Disney+'s current blurb for the 2012 movie: "The Avengers - Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Thor and Captain America - assemble alongside Black Widow and Hawkeye to..." does this hold any weight? -Bogger (talk) 14:06, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

They are all the original six members of the Avengers. The synopsis likely lists them as such because the former four all had movies preceding this whereas the latter two did not. It would be WP:SYNTH to say this somehow changes the roster clearly depicted in the film. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:49, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

References

Discussion on New Avengers.

I would like to ask if New Avengers are entirely different team or sub-team of Avengers? because Bucky Barnes' addition as the leader of New Avengers is excluded from infobox citing that this page is about only Avengers. Yet, New Avengers' roster is included in this article. I would like to propose a split of New Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe) from this article, because both teams are set to appear in Avengers: Doomsday which will unnecessary increase the length if both are deemed separate teams. I think many editors might disagree for the split since it is way early as the team is just established but there are enough secondary reliable sources available to establish its notability. Even if consensus decide against split, I request for the inclusion of Bucky Barnes in infobox as not including him negates us from having quick-at-glance information for which infoboxes are, especially if New Avengers are redirected here. Meccashy (talk) 13:17, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

What reliable sources do you have that support the notion of notability. Keeping in mind that any sites owned by Valnet, such as Screen Rant which you cited as the only ref for Reception in your proposed article, are questionable sources, per WP:RSP/VALNET. This is such a WP:RECENT development that notability is not clearly established yet. The New Avengers are a separate team from the Avengers but share some characteristics with that team, so, from a real-world perspective, they are an offshoot. There is nothing wrong with including information about another Avengers team in this article, but the main scope here is for the main team, with the secondary team also covered. Concerns about page length increasing are without merit and subjective, and it is still far WP:TOOSOON to even be considering a split given the lack of encyclopedic content available about the New Avengers, considering it was just introduced in a recently released film. This is not a fan wiki, and this team has only appeared once and will appear only twice with Doomsday next year and three times with Secret Wars. That does not meet the criteria established at WP:MCUCHARACTERS either. Trailblazer101 (talk) 13:28, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining, I'll try to focus the draft article till it is ready for mainspace. Meccashy (talk) 13:57, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Ross is not an enemy

Like I’ve stated before Ross is not an enemy of the Avengers. The UN did the sokovia accords, he was doing his job. Was he being dick? Yeah, but never an enemy to the Avengers. User:MarioProtIV said “That was only Sam facing Ross in BNW and he doesn’t count for his Civil War stuff.” Like really comparing him to Ultron or Thanos? I don’t think so. Ziggy Coltrane (talk) 06:52, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

@Ziggy Coltrane: That is a subjective rationale. Enemies does not necessarily mean they are the Big Bads, rather, ones who are major opponents to the team in universe. Ross was a direct enemy to one faction of the Avengers in Civil War, that is why he is listed, not because of him becoming Red Hulk and fighting Sam in Brave New World, which is before Sam restarts the Avengers. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:09, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

Again he was a dick to Cap’s side of the Avengers, that doesn’t really mean he belongs on the list. Yes, your explanation of enemies is a good one. Zemo, for example he said it himself that he couldn’t fight the Avengers because men stronger than him have I tried, but if he can get them to fight each other. Ross wasn’t scheming against the Avengers, the UN had a law and he just told them what the consequences would be. Ziggy Coltrane (talk) 22:16, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

Except Ross's own actions came with his view of superheroes needing to be kept in check due to his personal history with them. Ross's actions in enforcing the Accords directly resulted in the Avengers Civil War alongside Zemo's actions. Saying he was "a dick" to one faction of the team is not a sufficient rationale to justify removal. Being an enemy does not require "scheming", it means being at odds and a rival. Your content removal has been contested by various editors and is unlikely to be acted upon. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:42, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

Would you add Quicksilver and Wanda to that list since they enemies for the first half of Ultron? Ross is no way in the same category as those listed, he was doing his job.Ziggy Coltrane (talk) 00:31, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

Those are different circumstances because they later joined the Avengers and were reformed. Ross has remained an antagonist figure, even if he is not a primary villain. Trailblazer101 (talk) 00:39, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

Wanda held a town captive (before she even had the darkhold). Ross is not in the same category as those villains listed. At the very least, he’s like Wanda who’s an anti-hero. Ziggy Coltrane (talk) 02:33, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

This is WP:NOTAFORUM to discuss your opinion of character classifications. Multiple editors disagree with your content removal. That is not going to change regardless of any way you try to spin this discussion. Trailblazer101 (talk) 03:01, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

It’s not my opinion that’s what they are. He’s never been a full blown villain compared to those listed. Having him listed in the same section with Loki, ultron, and thanos is not the same. The editors who reverted, never gave their reason. Ziggy Coltrane (talk) 03:56, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

You are arguing semantics about what an antagonist and enemy are. In the context of the fictional events, multiple editors disagree with your assertions. Just because you believe something does not make it fact. The "enemies" parameter is not reserved for the main villains of a media property. Ross has still been an enemy to the Avengers by opposing the team and their very existence as shown in Civil War. You can debate this all you want but Ross will not be removed from the infobox. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:04, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

Cite formatting

@Gonnym: MOS:VAR applies. The citation templates have always used |newspaper or |publisher where applicable and that is what is recommended to use at {{Cite news}}. This article has gone through a lot of edits recently and ProveIt overlooks that, but that does not mean they are not correct parameters to use. Every time I edit this article and new citations are added, I ensure they are consistently formatted. All MCU articles typically follow suit in formatting these cites this way, so I'm not sure why you specifically have a problem with me rectifying it here when that is the longstanding formatting for this article. I don't see much point in edit warring over citation formatting of all things. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 15:43, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

@Gonnym: Pinging again since you have yet to respond and discuss constructively. I do not appreciate you accusing me of wikilawyering. This article has for the lo longest time formatted these citations this way. Pinging other regular contributors @InfiniteNexus, @Adamstom.97, @Favre1fan93, @Facu-el Millo, @ZooBlazer, @BarntToust. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 16:03, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Really not something to be edit warring over. |newspaper= and |work= are aliases of one another so there is no practical difference, though |newspaper= is more specific when used with {{Cite news}}. Isn't there a bot that has been making changes along this lines at various articles? - adamstom97 (talk) 16:30, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Yup. Usually the Citation bot pops in and makes these parameter adjustments because ProveIt overlooks them. This is a standard procedure but I try to get ahead of the bots by formatting them all to be consistent myself. This typically has never been contested until now, so I am not sure why Gonnym has taken issue with this. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 16:38, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Courtesy pinging @Smith609 as operator of WP:CITEBOT. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 18:23, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you Trailblazer101 for the ping. In concurrence with Adamstom here; of all things, why wage an edit war over that? These parameters equate. In other terms, this would be as trivial as disputing if color:red versus color:#ff0000 should be used to color in some text. For a defined newspaper like The Times or ABC, the more technical answer could be |newspaper= — otherwise, but in concurrence with Trail, |work= is the more broad parameter.

Tying into that, |work= works most generally yet what has been done has, as Mister Blaze noted in an edit summary, worked for a good long while before "The Gonnym Reforms". WP:CITEVAR offers these words:

Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style, merely on the grounds of personal preference or to make it match other articles, without first seeking consensus for the change BarntToust 19:37, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

I should also like to put into consideration what can be learned from a recent edit about another topic area I frequent that has some good rationale for why Bloomberg News ought to be not using a |publisher= parameter. User:Rhain's rationale in the linked edit summary is rather helpful. BarntToust 19:43, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

worked for a good long while before "The Gonnym Reforms" can you show me where exactly I've done my reforms? Or was that a baseless personal attack that I should report? Gonnym (talk) 18:30, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

14 years of experience editing Wikipedia, and all you have to show for it is pissy confrontationalism and a scarce ability to recognize slight humor? I don't know what's gotten into you, friend, but I think it's time for WALKIES.

I'm only stridefully referring to this attempt at reforming the citation style as "reforms", as were they some grand ordeal, because you've made it into an edit war, which as Adamstom.97 said, and I agree, is rather a pointless battle to be fighting on your end. BarntToust 18:45, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Oh my, not everything is a personal attack. Barnt just uses a specific type of language for communication some deem to be sarcastic. They do not mean any ill intent from my experiences contributing with them. This is the internet after all, so not everything can be conveyed as intended... No need to be so hasty. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 00:04, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, among my specific type of language I tend to assign certain key ideas phrases I deal with to make them easier for my mind to maintain understanding. For example, search "the Japan question" across WikiTalk and you'll see me using that term across a content dispute about Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (film), to represent the aching question if Japan qualified as a country of origin for the film. I mean no offense with my idiosyncrasies. BarntToust 01:58, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry I missed your ping here. To argue that MOS:VAR applies, please show me that the initial edits on this page used your preferred style. Additionaly, I disagree even that VAR has anything to do with this as we aren't changing a citation style. As I stated in my edit summary, changing |work= to anything doesn't add value as it doesn't change anything at all. However, it does affect the editing experience negativly, as it then requires each and every subsequent edit using ProveIt (and possibly other tools) to be manually re-formatted. That alone is enough for this edit to be opposed and the WP:STATUSQUO which was the page at this edit before the bold edit called "Ref work". Gonnym (talk) 18:26, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Not taking either side in this, but in general, if a gadget isn't compatible with an established method of writing articles, it's the gadget that needs to be fixed, not the articles. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:18, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

I chose to revert my revert because while using the established citation style is something established across the MCU project, I don't know when this article first broke from that, then the time passed until Trail remedied that break and then the Gonnym reforms took place. I don't have all the facts so I'm tapping out and playing it safe. BarntToust 21:45, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Look, everyone, just stop. This WP:LAME edit war over such a trivial matter has now triggered everybody's watchlists 18 times. Regardless of who is right or wrong, back-and-forth reverting is disruptive and not constructive. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:22, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

There is still no need to force changes to standard formatting accepted on multiple articles just because you personally dislike it, Gonnym. I know Gonnym and I tend not to see eye-to-eye on things, but this should be beyond that and any personal preferences. ProveIt tends to change these, yes, but that does not mean it is inferior to change them back. If you don't like that that requires more manual work, than you don't have to act upon it. The Citation bot makes these manual changes to the parameters upon request, so it is not like this is exclusively a tedious endeavor. Most MCU articles use these parameters, and this should remain consistent with those ones. As for status quo arguments, in recent months, ProveIt has been used on this article, thus swapping the parameters for the work one. I was merely restoring what should have been an uncontroversial change, as it has typically been for years. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 22:58, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

I also want to echo what Ahecht said, in that this is an issue to discuss with the ProveIt operators, not for us to edit war over on a single article. Also, no one is required to use any of these gadgets, they are just here to assist in syntax cleanup. This has been blown way out of proportion. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 23:01, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that as of this revision dated 08:38, August 5, 2024 and this one dated 04:02, June 12, 2024, the "newspaper" parameter was in use. That changed when Gonnym altered them in this diff dated 08:27, January 19, 2025, in what was likely a ProveIt-assisted edit. If anything, the earlier formatting from before January was the long-standing status quo before the changes earlier this year. Refusing to put in a little extra work to harmonize the formatting you changed in the first place is not a valid excuse to justify your edit war over this. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 23:54, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

this was the research I was hoping to find done. Thank you for taking on the revision scouring, Trail! BarntToust 01:50, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

For the record, I have boldly restored the citation formatting to use the newspaper and publisher parameters (given a very rough, slim agreement here) and I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:ProveIt#Issues in forcing "work" parameter over "newspaper" and "publisher", should anyone be interested in participating there. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 17:24, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

Mister Fantastic as the leader

Mister Fantastic has been listed as the leader of Avengers and has also been included in the team roster as per the Avengers: Doomsday film and Matt Shakman's comments. It's still not clear if he'll be leader of Avengers or he'll only lead them for a mission without joining them. It can possibly be misinformation as the film isn't released yet. Even if the information is correct, isn't it too soon to add that in the article? Shouldn't we wait till the release of film before adding "in universe" information regarding it? 103.251.19.206 (talk) 16:54, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

I would support removing it here & at Draft talk:Reed Richards (Marvel Cinematic Universe); @Adamstom.97 has already removed it from the Doomsday article. @(a)nnihilation97 added it using this Forbes source which directly speculates on who is in the Avengers/leading the team, however, that runs into WP:FORBESCON. I replaced the Forbes article with the Variety article it quoted. That article states: "Reed was the most challenging role to cast. 'He goes from being the nerdy scientist who’s locked away in the lab, to the husband and the father who'd do anything to protect his family, to the guy who’s leading the Avengers,' Shakman says. 'I realized that the version we were building had to have all of those elements.'" Nothing else in the Variety article references the Avengers leadership so I don't think you can definitively give an end date for Wilson & a start date Richards as the team leader just based on that quote. It mostly seems like WP:SPECULATION that has a weak source trying to justify it. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:31, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

I interpreted this as a reference to the comics / character in-general. If Reed becomes the official leader of the Avengers in Doomsday or Secret Wars, I doubt Marvel would want to talk about that now. Maybe he will and Shakman accidentally revealed that early, but we can't know that for sure. - adamstom97 (talk) 17:41, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:44, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

Those were my thoughts exactly. I think Shakman's wording is still partially ambiguous and we should not run with it as a definitive fact when it can be interpreted another way. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 22:38, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

Looks like Pascal has put this matter to rest, clarifying in an Entertainment Weekly interview: "Matt was talking about a Reed Richards that, within the comics of the Avengers, the Fantastic Four are brought into the Avengers and Reed is commissioned to lead a mission, but that is different than what we're doing," the actor says. "So I think what Matt has said about Reed and the comic has been taken out of context." Just goes to show that we can't always take everything at face value, even from the trades. — Trailblazer¹⁰¹🔥 ^{(discuss · contribs)} 00:18, 23 July 2025 (UTC)